5 ms·

Do watching skateboarding tricks frame by frame make you progress faster?

21 points by benoit_cotte 3y ago

eternityforest 3y ago
I've always been curious about what it's like for other people to watch something like this. Can you watch a dance or a trick or something and feel what it would be like to do it yourself? Do you see this stuff in your head as a sequence of frames? Or a movie? Or do you somehow have access to the whole thing at once like you're thinking in 4 dimensions? When I watch any kind of instructional video for even something very simple it looks like a total blur, one of those "Wow that's impressive, I can't even tell what happened" things, and I usually don't see or feel anything in my head at all, I'm just saying "Ok he moves his arm up at the same time as his foot goes back away from the camera towards the hand with the stick" and trying (And failing) to copy things one piece at a time.
- wkdneidbwf 3y ago
  a lot of tricks have subtle bits around foot placement, how and when the board is flicked, etc. even the same trick can be done in different styles. someone learning from this is paying attention to detail on body and foot positioning that someone who doesn’t skate wouldn’t see.
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  That's an interesting point. It is highly likely for someone who does not skate that you would not feel anything much that some sort of satisfaction (if anything at all). This is all the more intriguing that for skaters though, it lights up so many different things in your body and brain, that you could literally stay watching a simple trick forever. It is probably true for a lot of sports with some artistic vibes. Vibrating to the perfect moment, the sound, the touch, all happening at speed.
- TechBro8615 3y ago
  This is how I learned to swing a baseball bat. I remember my dad bought some VHS tapes with a swing coach who broke it down into stages "one, two and three." And then he showed the slow motion swings of major leaguers and pointed to where the three stages were. Then he gave a drill for each step. And you were supposed to practice each step in isolation, then put them all together. I remember thinking it was ridiculous, but it was somewhat effective (I was never a great hitter, but I think that was due more to the lack of a batting cage in my backyard than it was to the poor teaching skills of some mustached guy from the 70s). It's "good enough" for beginning instruction because it gives you a way to break a complex process into smaller discrete steps that you can practice in isolation. Are professionals thinking about their swing in three parts? No, definitely not, but you've got to start somewhere... My piano teacher had a similar way of teaching, breaking each song into small pieces and making me practice a few notes dozens of times, then gradually growing the size of the pieces, and then putting them all together. He was an expert, so you could put a sheet of music in front of him and he'd play the whole thing on the first try. But I couldn't do that, so I needed to learn step by step. There is something to be said for this technique, at least until you become an expert at something, to the point that it's second nature to swing the bat or play a full sheet of music. At that point you probably have more effective ways of teaching yourself. But you've got to start somewhere.
- bravetraveler 3y ago
  The four-dimensional thing is better than any explanation I can offer... as a skater, with skating things at least. It doesn't translate to other things at all for me, but this was the most active thing I ever did... I can watch Rodney Mullen do things I could never physically do, but 'feel' things you wouldn't expect. Examples would be where I'd put my weight, where the board would be pushing back, and how much I should lean forward/back to not slip It's kind of like when zoning out while driving, in some ways. You go through the motions because you've done all the various pieces before. A kickflip is an ollie with a slide to the side, for example But, because this process is new, it does take a lot of trial/focus. You get a good idea, but... theory/practice
  - benoit_cotte 3y ago
    Totally. I see that it can get a long way for the aspect of "cherish" this tricks it took so long for you to master. For example, I lost my kickflips after a 10 year hiatus. I am still trying to recover from it. Once, I ll be there, I want to never forget them again, or at least having a solid proof I perfected it once in my life.
- DANmode 3y ago
  1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3924058/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3924058/ 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4826257/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4826257/ 3. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.01379.2013 https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysio... The last one was cool, and new to me.
  - benoit_cotte 3y ago
    the last one is a 404
im3w1l 3y ago
I expected an article and was disapponted it was not.
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  Let me try this hardflip a hundred times more. When I land it for good, an article it will be. You shall not be disappointed once again.
- DANmode 3y ago
  See my other comment, may scratch your itch.
  - im3w1l 3y ago
    Those links are completely unrelated to the topic at hand.
nullsense 3y ago
There was that paper recently where they built a model of tennis players by feeding it recorded tennis matches. I wonder if you could just do the same with skateboarding and use that to figure out the possible parameters under which a trick succeeds or fails, and then also use it to be able to evaluate your own performance and tell you how far off you are and what you need to do different?
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  I'd be super interested in reading that piece. If you find it again, could you post it here?
  - gtani 3y ago
    Pretty novel approach, well documented https://techxplore.com/news/2020-08-ai-player-strikingly-realistic-virtual.html https://techxplore.com/news/2020-08-ai-player-strikingly-rea... https://cs.stanford.edu/~haotianz/research/vid2player/ https://cs.stanford.edu/~haotianz/research/vid2player/
    - benoit_cotte 3y ago
      Dang, this is so cool. Thanks a lot for the articles!
      - nullsense 3y ago
        I think this one is even more recent https://research.nvidia.com/labs/toronto-ai/vid2player3d/ https://research.nvidia.com/labs/toronto-ai/vid2player3d/
TN1ck 3y ago
It definitely helps, a simple position change of the foot can make a total difference. But this is only one part, skateboarding is so much muscle memory, even if you know how to do it, you need to try it hundred of times to get your body to actually do it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
rahimnathwani 3y ago
For someone in their 40s, what's the best way to learn to ride a skateboard? I just want to be competent enough to replace a 10 min walk to/from a subway station. I've tried following video instructions. But each time, after 10 mins I felt like I was making zero progress. Perhaps I just need to keep trying and eventually it will click? Or perhaps I should ask one of the neighbourhood kids?
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  Totally aligned with the answer below. Probably not the best for commuting. But it is true that it opens a whole new world. Both deep and fascinating IMO. I have been thrown in during my childhood, and realised it is a whole part of who I am now. If you want to try it out, we have a friend of us in the Old Skaters Tricks Challenge who started out recently at 36 yo. Being part of the tricks challenge helped him unlock tricks like BS 180 or FS 180, and it made the other guys with often more experience super stoked to witness that. First time landing a new trick is quiet something. Anyway, if you want to get skateboarding a chance, we're here.
- Doxin 3y ago
  So perhaps this is obvious, but for commuting you probably want to use a longboard, not a skateboard. Can't do tricks on a longboard, but other than that it's much easier than a skateboard.
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    The only trick I want to do is not falling off!
- bravetraveler 3y ago
  I can only vaguely recall this stage... but I found standing on a board without trucks or wheels fairly helpful! On a relatively firm surface (ie: carpet) this provides some practice for the balancing act. How foot placement and the contours in the board impact things too Similarly, on something with a little more flex (grass), it's a decent way to start trying some flip tricks :) As for rolling around, I think it's mostly finding really smooth/flat surfaces... and just doing it a lot. Depending on your wheels/weight placement, anything thicker than a quarter can stop you almost immediately. It takes a little while to get the 'feel' and speed to deal with rougher surfaces particularly well
gtani 3y ago
Interesting, my conclusion, it depends. That particular one has back foot just barely in the frame at critical moment. Watching Troy Grady's closeups of leading guitar players picking hands from a few inches away didn't do much for me, but watching lots of telemark skiers vids helped pinpoint variables like pole length and pole plant reach that I would not have thought of. So, like learning piano or violin or sports/kinematic skills, read and watch vids a little and practice a lot.
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  100. Also, I am still quiet surprised that for this example on the hardflip, you place your back foot near the opposite side. It was pretty counter-intuitive for me. Practice for sure is the most important part.

21 points by benoit_cotte 3y ago

I've always been curious about what it's like for other people to watch something like this. Can you watch a dance or a trick or something and feel what it would be like to do it yourself? Do you see this stuff in your head as a sequence of frames? Or a movie? Or do you somehow have access to the whole thing at once like you're thinking in 4 dimensions? When I watch any kind of instructional video for even something very simple it looks like a total blur, one of those "Wow that's impressive, I can't even tell what happened" things, and I usually don't see or feel anything in my head at all, I'm just saying "Ok he moves his arm up at the same time as his foot goes back away from the camera towards the hand with the stick" and trying (And failing) to copy things one piece at a time.

wkdneidbwf 3y ago
a lot of tricks have subtle bits around foot placement, how and when the board is flicked, etc. even the same trick can be done in different styles. someone learning from this is paying attention to detail on body and foot positioning that someone who doesn’t skate wouldn’t see.
benoit_cotte 3y ago
That's an interesting point. It is highly likely for someone who does not skate that you would not feel anything much that some sort of satisfaction (if anything at all). This is all the more intriguing that for skaters though, it lights up so many different things in your body and brain, that you could literally stay watching a simple trick forever. It is probably true for a lot of sports with some artistic vibes. Vibrating to the perfect moment, the sound, the touch, all happening at speed.
TechBro8615 3y ago
This is how I learned to swing a baseball bat. I remember my dad bought some VHS tapes with a swing coach who broke it down into stages "one, two and three." And then he showed the slow motion swings of major leaguers and pointed to where the three stages were. Then he gave a drill for each step. And you were supposed to practice each step in isolation, then put them all together. I remember thinking it was ridiculous, but it was somewhat effective (I was never a great hitter, but I think that was due more to the lack of a batting cage in my backyard than it was to the poor teaching skills of some mustached guy from the 70s). It's "good enough" for beginning instruction because it gives you a way to break a complex process into smaller discrete steps that you can practice in isolation. Are professionals thinking about their swing in three parts? No, definitely not, but you've got to start somewhere... My piano teacher had a similar way of teaching, breaking each song into small pieces and making me practice a few notes dozens of times, then gradually growing the size of the pieces, and then putting them all together. He was an expert, so you could put a sheet of music in front of him and he'd play the whole thing on the first try. But I couldn't do that, so I needed to learn step by step. There is something to be said for this technique, at least until you become an expert at something, to the point that it's second nature to swing the bat or play a full sheet of music. At that point you probably have more effective ways of teaching yourself. But you've got to start somewhere.
bravetraveler 3y ago
The four-dimensional thing is better than any explanation I can offer... as a skater, with skating things at least. It doesn't translate to other things at all for me, but this was the most active thing I ever did... I can watch Rodney Mullen do things I could never physically do, but 'feel' things you wouldn't expect. Examples would be where I'd put my weight, where the board would be pushing back, and how much I should lean forward/back to not slip It's kind of like when zoning out while driving, in some ways. You go through the motions because you've done all the various pieces before. A kickflip is an ollie with a slide to the side, for example But, because this process is new, it does take a lot of trial/focus. You get a good idea, but... theory/practice
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  Totally. I see that it can get a long way for the aspect of "cherish" this tricks it took so long for you to master. For example, I lost my kickflips after a 10 year hiatus. I am still trying to recover from it. Once, I ll be there, I want to never forget them again, or at least having a solid proof I perfected it once in my life.
DANmode 3y ago
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3924058/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3924058/ 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4826257/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4826257/ 3. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.01379.2013 https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysio... The last one was cool, and new to me.
- benoit_cotte 3y ago
  the last one is a 404

im3w1l 3y ago

I expected an article and was disapponted it was not.

benoit_cotte 3y ago
Let me try this hardflip a hundred times more. When I land it for good, an article it will be. You shall not be disappointed once again.
DANmode 3y ago
See my other comment, may scratch your itch.
- im3w1l 3y ago
  Those links are completely unrelated to the topic at hand.

nullsense 3y ago

There was that paper recently where they built a model of tennis players by feeding it recorded tennis matches. I wonder if you could just do the same with skateboarding and use that to figure out the possible parameters under which a trick succeeds or fails, and then also use it to be able to evaluate your own performance and tell you how far off you are and what you need to do different?

benoit_cotte 3y ago
I'd be super interested in reading that piece. If you find it again, could you post it here?
- gtani 3y ago
  Pretty novel approach, well documented https://techxplore.com/news/2020-08-ai-player-strikingly-realistic-virtual.html https://techxplore.com/news/2020-08-ai-player-strikingly-rea... https://cs.stanford.edu/~haotianz/research/vid2player/ https://cs.stanford.edu/~haotianz/research/vid2player/
  - benoit_cotte 3y ago
    Dang, this is so cool. Thanks a lot for the articles!
    - nullsense 3y ago
      I think this one is even more recent https://research.nvidia.com/labs/toronto-ai/vid2player3d/ https://research.nvidia.com/labs/toronto-ai/vid2player3d/

TN1ck 3y ago

It definitely helps, a simple position change of the foot can make a total difference. But this is only one part, skateboarding is so much muscle memory, even if you know how to do it, you need to try it hundred of times to get your body to actually do it.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

rahimnathwani 3y ago

For someone in their 40s, what's the best way to learn to ride a skateboard? I just want to be competent enough to replace a 10 min walk to/from a subway station. I've tried following video instructions. But each time, after 10 mins I felt like I was making zero progress. Perhaps I just need to keep trying and eventually it will click? Or perhaps I should ask one of the neighbourhood kids?

benoit_cotte 3y ago
Totally aligned with the answer below. Probably not the best for commuting. But it is true that it opens a whole new world. Both deep and fascinating IMO. I have been thrown in during my childhood, and realised it is a whole part of who I am now. If you want to try it out, we have a friend of us in the Old Skaters Tricks Challenge who started out recently at 36 yo. Being part of the tricks challenge helped him unlock tricks like BS 180 or FS 180, and it made the other guys with often more experience super stoked to witness that. First time landing a new trick is quiet something. Anyway, if you want to get skateboarding a chance, we're here.
Doxin 3y ago
So perhaps this is obvious, but for commuting you probably want to use a longboard, not a skateboard. Can't do tricks on a longboard, but other than that it's much easier than a skateboard.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  The only trick I want to do is not falling off!
bravetraveler 3y ago
I can only vaguely recall this stage... but I found standing on a board without trucks or wheels fairly helpful! On a relatively firm surface (ie: carpet) this provides some practice for the balancing act. How foot placement and the contours in the board impact things too Similarly, on something with a little more flex (grass), it's a decent way to start trying some flip tricks :) As for rolling around, I think it's mostly finding really smooth/flat surfaces... and just doing it a lot. Depending on your wheels/weight placement, anything thicker than a quarter can stop you almost immediately. It takes a little while to get the 'feel' and speed to deal with rougher surfaces particularly well

gtani 3y ago

Interesting, my conclusion, it depends. That particular one has back foot just barely in the frame at critical moment. Watching Troy Grady's closeups of leading guitar players picking hands from a few inches away didn't do much for me, but watching lots of telemark skiers vids helped pinpoint variables like pole length and pole plant reach that I would not have thought of. So, like learning piano or violin or sports/kinematic skills, read and watch vids a little and practice a lot.

benoit_cotte 3y ago
100. Also, I am still quiet surprised that for this example on the hardflip, you place your back foot near the opposite side. It was pretty counter-intuitive for me. Practice for sure is the most important part.