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Adolescence was invented in the 19th century to enable middle-class families to keep their children out of sweatshops. But it has degenerated into a process of

Adolescence was invented in the 19th century to enable middle-class families to keep their children out of sweatshops. But it has degenerated into a process of enforced boredom and age segregation... The fact is, most young people want to be challenged and given real responsibility. They want to be treated like young men and women, not old children. Where have we heard this before? http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html

DanielBMarkham 18y ago
Is this starting to become like "I, for one, welcome our new X overlords?" is on Slashdot? PG wrote everything. Let's take that as a given. Now can we move on? I'm not trying to be persnickety, but your comment adds absolutely nothing to the discussion and sounds like fanboy tripe. If PGs article was on here, we could talk about that. But it's not. AFAIK, every one of PG's articles has already appeared on here and we've already talked about it. So on with the new material, okay?
- aswanson 18y ago
  Sorry, Dan, but the strange loop generated by what I am submitting here is irresistible. Cheers: http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2007/12/the_guy.php http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2007/12/the_guy.php
  - bjelkeman-again 18y ago
    Thanks. That really threw me in a loop.
- mnemonicsloth 18y ago
  You're not being persnickety. You're rushing to judgment because it gives you an excuse to put on a big show of pwning me-the-thoughtless-fanboy. "X and Y are the same" is a lesson we all learned on Sesame Street, and isn't much worth discussing. Rather than give some kind of credit to PG for anticipating NG, I wanted to point out how weird it is for the two of them to be agreeing. Gingrich is respectful of tradition and has a politician's instincts for rationalization and euphemism. Graham has said (along with everything else) that groups of people are inherently dumb and lazy, and is almost contemptuously truthful. There's plenty of real intellectual content in there if you take the time to dig for it, and much of it is cool and subversive...
Alex3917 18y ago
Gatto has a lot to say about this in UHoAE as well. My own thinking is that it is impossible to end adolescence because American society is structured around competition, and competition depends on measurement. And because there's no good theory on what can verse can't be measured, it's too easy for the proponents of adolescence to put some numbers on what they're selling. And because these metrics make the benefits of adolescence seem more salient than the benefits of anything else, adolescence will always beat out every other option, short of some radical philosophical shift in society, which is beyond the scope of this movement.
- thomasmallen 18y ago
  * Who are these proponents? * What are the numbers? What are they selling? * What benefits? What would "anything else" be? * Is there anything to take home from that drawn-out paragraph? Sounds like a bullshit theory to me.
  - Alex3917 18y ago
    "Who are these proponents?" Schools, colleges, associated faculty and staff, parents, politicians, employers, etc. "What are the numbers? What are they selling?" Degrees, GPA, US News rank, X vs educational attainment (e.g. future earnings potential), etc. "What benefits?" The story of school. That is, what it means to be well educated/qualified is having a degree, having gone to a good school, having gotten a good GPA, etc. The social currency these things bring is all tied up with the story of school, or its foundational myth, or whatever you want to call it. By going through the system you earn the right to invoke the story. "What would "anything else" be?" Anything else. As it stands the only way to renounce adolescence is to become sanyasi sankalpa, which isn't a very good option. "Sounds like a bullshit theory to me." Maybe it's a bullshit theory, maybe it's the most poignant observation about western civ ever made, but you're smart so figure it out for yourself, I'm not here to play Bodhisattva.
    - thomasmallen 18y ago
      OK, good details, now it doesn't sound like so much of a bullshit theory to me. You should have included these details in the first place, I think.
bmj 18y ago
Or maybe Ivan Illich? http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Illich/Deschooling/intro.html http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Illich/Deschooling/intro.h...
crabapple 18y ago
yeah nice example...and how long did he stay in college?

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

Is this starting to become like "I, for one, welcome our new X overlords?" is on Slashdot? PG wrote everything. Let's take that as a given. Now can we move on? I'm not trying to be persnickety, but your comment adds absolutely nothing to the discussion and sounds like fanboy tripe. If PGs article was on here, we could talk about that. But it's not. AFAIK, every one of PG's articles has already appeared on here and we've already talked about it. So on with the new material, okay?

aswanson 18y ago
Sorry, Dan, but the strange loop generated by what I am submitting here is irresistible. Cheers: http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2007/12/the_guy.php http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2007/12/the_guy.php
- bjelkeman-again 18y ago
  Thanks. That really threw me in a loop.
mnemonicsloth 18y ago
You're not being persnickety. You're rushing to judgment because it gives you an excuse to put on a big show of pwning me-the-thoughtless-fanboy. "X and Y are the same" is a lesson we all learned on Sesame Street, and isn't much worth discussing. Rather than give some kind of credit to PG for anticipating NG, I wanted to point out how weird it is for the two of them to be agreeing. Gingrich is respectful of tradition and has a politician's instincts for rationalization and euphemism. Graham has said (along with everything else) that groups of people are inherently dumb and lazy, and is almost contemptuously truthful. There's plenty of real intellectual content in there if you take the time to dig for it, and much of it is cool and subversive...

Alex3917 18y ago

Gatto has a lot to say about this in UHoAE as well. My own thinking is that it is impossible to end adolescence because American society is structured around competition, and competition depends on measurement. And because there's no good theory on what can verse can't be measured, it's too easy for the proponents of adolescence to put some numbers on what they're selling. And because these metrics make the benefits of adolescence seem more salient than the benefits of anything else, adolescence will always beat out every other option, short of some radical philosophical shift in society, which is beyond the scope of this movement.

thomasmallen 18y ago
* Who are these proponents? * What are the numbers? What are they selling? * What benefits? What would "anything else" be? * Is there anything to take home from that drawn-out paragraph? Sounds like a bullshit theory to me.
- Alex3917 18y ago
  "Who are these proponents?" Schools, colleges, associated faculty and staff, parents, politicians, employers, etc. "What are the numbers? What are they selling?" Degrees, GPA, US News rank, X vs educational attainment (e.g. future earnings potential), etc. "What benefits?" The story of school. That is, what it means to be well educated/qualified is having a degree, having gone to a good school, having gotten a good GPA, etc. The social currency these things bring is all tied up with the story of school, or its foundational myth, or whatever you want to call it. By going through the system you earn the right to invoke the story. "What would "anything else" be?" Anything else. As it stands the only way to renounce adolescence is to become sanyasi sankalpa, which isn't a very good option. "Sounds like a bullshit theory to me." Maybe it's a bullshit theory, maybe it's the most poignant observation about western civ ever made, but you're smart so figure it out for yourself, I'm not here to play Bodhisattva.
  - thomasmallen 18y ago
    OK, good details, now it doesn't sound like so much of a bullshit theory to me. You should have included these details in the first place, I think.

bmj 18y ago

Or maybe Ivan Illich? http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Illich/Deschooling/intro.html http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Illich/Deschooling/intro.h...

crabapple 18y ago

yeah nice example...and how long did he stay in college?