3 ms·

Care to elaborate? Do you have a source for that? As far as I know the EUV lenses part was done by Zeiss and the EUV sources part by Trumpf.

by sveme 3y ago

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
>As far as I know Then you don't know the full story. Important is who has the IP and license for the EUV technology that has proven to produce the highest yields. The only reason ASML won EUV lithography and its competitors Canon and Nikon lost, is that US decided to license its domestic EUV tech developed by Sandia Labs to ASML, and denied it to Canon and Nikon, purely because ASML acquired Silicon Valley Group Inc, US's leading lithography supplier at the time, giving ASML a strategic US presence on US soil, versus their Japanese competitors.[1] Also, light sources are made by CYMER[2], another US supplier that ASML bought. Nikon and Canon could also contrat Zeiss and Trumpf for the same parts that ASML gets but they don't have access to Sandia's and CYMER's EUV tech which is better than the EUV tech they developed in house. So you see, ASML is not some European wonder as the chip hipsters would want to believe, since it wouldn't own the EUV market today if it weren't for strategic acquisitions on US soil that gave them the EUV monopoly they enjoy today. [1] https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65642319 https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65642319 [2] https://www.cymer.com/light-source-technology/ https://www.cymer.com/light-source-technology/
- sveme 3y ago
  That's a bit like saying that Google would not exist without the contributions by Leo Katz. Or that Sandia's EUV tech would not exist without Ernst Abbés contributions. Everything's build on top of something. But for some reasons all your posts seem to be intended to downplay anything coming from Europe. Which is fine, everyone needs a resident contrarian.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    I'm not downplaying anything, I'm being a realist among the hype that EU is some tech powerhouse when it's objectively much weaker than the EU fanboys would like to believe. The US could have sold the EUV tech to Canon or Nikon and the Japanese would have owned the EUV industry, but the Dutch ASML played the political game better and won the deal but selling US tech doesn't make it an EU innovation. And you can't compare licensed or bought tech to individual contributions from indvidual persons. The US still owns the EUV tech ASML is using and has veto rights on what it can do with it and who it can sell it too. ASML would love to sell EUV steppers to China and make bank since China is desperate to ramp up its domestic fab industry, but US says "NO" and it must comply. The NL or the EU didn't veto the sale, the US did, and ASML complied because the US Gov have ASML by the balls since it's now also partly a US company monetizing US tech.
    - saberience 3y ago
      Why would the USA "sell the EUV tech" to a European company if any American company could do it? It makes no fucking sense. The only thing that makes sense is that there was no American company to "sell the tech" to. You're living in cloud cuckoo fantasy land if you think the US simply had EUV fully developed and just happily donated it to a Europany company out of the goodness of their hearts. If the tech was so easy and America held all the cards, the machines would be made in America, end of story.
      - TinkersW 3y ago
        This video covers EUV development in Japan and US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_OOta7Y6Ik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_OOta7Y6Ik Yes it was developed by the US.
        saberience 3y ago
        No it wasn't, much work was done in the Netherlands by researchers there and the original prototypes were made in the Netherlands and shipped as demos to the US! The idea that it was solely developed in the US is a MAGA fever-dream of American exceptionalism. The US only did very early research but never actually built anything based on the research, the Netherlands and ASML built on the early research, did more research on top of it, and then actually made it work. ASML also created the deals with Zeiss and other European companies which were critical in getting all the necessary components created to make EUV happen. None of this would have happened with Jos Benschop and Fred Bijkerk (in the Netherlands). I agree that some research was done in Japan, Russia, and the US, but this is the case for basically every technology, it's never the case that only one country is responsible solely for something. I'm pointing out (correctly), that ASML kicked ass with EUV tech in a way that no other company did, including Intel, which shows they have something that no other company has. Again, if it was so easy, why isn't an American company making those machines which are critical for the entire worlds security and productivity?
- foobiekr 3y ago
  I mean, all they have to do is read ASML's own writeup of this [1]. It's basically US-developed tech, US-funded and political-tactical partnerships. I just don't understand the confusion. [1] https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-fab https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-...
dralley 3y ago
Cymer (an American company that ASML bought out) makes the EUV source. Trumpf makes the CO2 laser that feeds the EUV source.
MangoCoffee 3y ago
"U.S. gives ok to ASML on EUV effort" https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/

Care to elaborate? Do you have a source for that? As far as I know the EUV lenses part was done by Zeiss and the EUV sources part by Trumpf.

by sveme 3y ago

Care to elaborate? Do you have a source for that? As far as I know the EUV lenses part was done by Zeiss and the EUV sources part by Trumpf.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago

>As far as I know Then you don't know the full story. Important is who has the IP and license for the EUV technology that has proven to produce the highest yields. The only reason ASML won EUV lithography and its competitors Canon and Nikon lost, is that US decided to license its domestic EUV tech developed by Sandia Labs to ASML, and denied it to Canon and Nikon, purely because ASML acquired Silicon Valley Group Inc, US's leading lithography supplier at the time, giving ASML a strategic US presence on US soil, versus their Japanese competitors.[1] Also, light sources are made by CYMER[2], another US supplier that ASML bought. Nikon and Canon could also contrat Zeiss and Trumpf for the same parts that ASML gets but they don't have access to Sandia's and CYMER's EUV tech which is better than the EUV tech they developed in house. So you see, ASML is not some European wonder as the chip hipsters would want to believe, since it wouldn't own the EUV market today if it weren't for strategic acquisitions on US soil that gave them the EUV monopoly they enjoy today. [1] https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65642319 https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65642319 [2] https://www.cymer.com/light-source-technology/ https://www.cymer.com/light-source-technology/

sveme 3y ago
That's a bit like saying that Google would not exist without the contributions by Leo Katz. Or that Sandia's EUV tech would not exist without Ernst Abbés contributions. Everything's build on top of something. But for some reasons all your posts seem to be intended to downplay anything coming from Europe. Which is fine, everyone needs a resident contrarian.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  I'm not downplaying anything, I'm being a realist among the hype that EU is some tech powerhouse when it's objectively much weaker than the EU fanboys would like to believe. The US could have sold the EUV tech to Canon or Nikon and the Japanese would have owned the EUV industry, but the Dutch ASML played the political game better and won the deal but selling US tech doesn't make it an EU innovation. And you can't compare licensed or bought tech to individual contributions from indvidual persons. The US still owns the EUV tech ASML is using and has veto rights on what it can do with it and who it can sell it too. ASML would love to sell EUV steppers to China and make bank since China is desperate to ramp up its domestic fab industry, but US says "NO" and it must comply. The NL or the EU didn't veto the sale, the US did, and ASML complied because the US Gov have ASML by the balls since it's now also partly a US company monetizing US tech.
  - saberience 3y ago
    Why would the USA "sell the EUV tech" to a European company if any American company could do it? It makes no fucking sense. The only thing that makes sense is that there was no American company to "sell the tech" to. You're living in cloud cuckoo fantasy land if you think the US simply had EUV fully developed and just happily donated it to a Europany company out of the goodness of their hearts. If the tech was so easy and America held all the cards, the machines would be made in America, end of story.
    - TinkersW 3y ago
      This video covers EUV development in Japan and US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_OOta7Y6Ik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_OOta7Y6Ik Yes it was developed by the US.
      - saberience 3y ago
        No it wasn't, much work was done in the Netherlands by researchers there and the original prototypes were made in the Netherlands and shipped as demos to the US! The idea that it was solely developed in the US is a MAGA fever-dream of American exceptionalism. The US only did very early research but never actually built anything based on the research, the Netherlands and ASML built on the early research, did more research on top of it, and then actually made it work. ASML also created the deals with Zeiss and other European companies which were critical in getting all the necessary components created to make EUV happen. None of this would have happened with Jos Benschop and Fred Bijkerk (in the Netherlands). I agree that some research was done in Japan, Russia, and the US, but this is the case for basically every technology, it's never the case that only one country is responsible solely for something. I'm pointing out (correctly), that ASML kicked ass with EUV tech in a way that no other company did, including Intel, which shows they have something that no other company has. Again, if it was so easy, why isn't an American company making those machines which are critical for the entire worlds security and productivity?
foobiekr 3y ago
I mean, all they have to do is read ASML's own writeup of this [1]. It's basically US-developed tech, US-funded and political-tactical partnerships. I just don't understand the confusion. [1] https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-fab https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-...

dralley 3y ago

Cymer (an American company that ASML bought out) makes the EUV source. Trumpf makes the CO2 laser that feeds the EUV source.

MangoCoffee 3y ago

"U.S. gives ok to ASML on EUV effort" https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/