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> Passkey sync providers like the Google Password Manager and iCloud Keychain use end-to-end encryption to keep your passkeys private. https://security.googleb
by nyanpasu64 3y ago
> Passkey sync providers like the Google Password Manager and iCloud Keychain use end-to-end encryption to keep your passkeys private.
https://security.googleblog.com/2022/10/SecurityofPasskeysintheGooglePasswordManager.html https://security.googleblog.com/2022/10/SecurityofPasskeysin... claims it's encrypted using "an encryption key that is only accessible on the user's own devices":
> When a user sets up a new Android device by transferring data from an older device, existing end-to-end encryption keys are securely transferred to the new device. In some cases, for example, when the older device was lost or damaged, users may need to recover the end-to-end encryption keys from a secure online backup.
> To recover the end-to-end encryption key, the user must provide the lock screen PIN, password, or pattern of another existing device that had access to those keys.
> Screen lock PINs, passwords or patterns themselves are not known to Google. The data that allows Google to verify correct input of a device's screen lock is stored on Google's servers in secure hardware enclaves and cannot be read by Google or any other entity.
How does Google know my device's local PIN in the first place? Are Android phones phoning home to Google with their local PINs, like how they already "helpfully" backup your Wi-Fi passwords to Google servers? And what's stopping the FBI from asking Google to send them every device's PIN as it's created?
- tasn 3y agoWhat's even more ridiculous is calling it end-to-end encryption when it's secured by a short numeric pin (what most people use). The search space for brute forcing it is so insanely small that it doesn't matter how much password stretching you do, it's trivial for Google/anyone with access to the keystore to brute force.
- astrange 3y agoGoogle doesn't have access to the keys, since they're in an HSM with no admin access. They could lie about that, but they could do a lot of things.
- thiht 3y agoGoogle doesn’t need your password to access your Google data though.
- tasn 3y agoIt's supposedly end-to-end encrypted. That's my point.
- mr_toad 3y agoYou don’t need to know a pin top verify the pin. You hash the pin with a one way function and compare it to a stored hash.
- judge2020 3y agoIf I had to guess, when you set up an Android device's passcode, it generates a key pair, signs a message and ships the public key to Google, and then encrypts the private key with your pin (maybe with your Google password and/or a Google-provided salt at the end) and ships that to Google. So when you restore access on a new device, it downloads that private key bundle and tries to decrypt it using the PIN you provide. > And what's stopping the FBI from asking Google to send them every device's PIN as it's created? device PINs are never sent to Google in this scenario - but nothing is stopping them from being asked to log your Password the next time you sign in, and it's up to you to trust that they'd never do this even when asked via national security letter since it destroys all trust people (and Google Workspace enterprise businesses) have in their login system.
- arnarbi 3y agoThere’s more info on this here: https://research.nccgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/NCC_Group_Google_EncryptedBackup_2018-10-10_v1.0.pdf https://research.nccgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/NCC... In short we can only verify PINs, and only a very limited number of guesses, enforced by hardware.