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Maybe for you. I have no interest in paying for this subscription, but a trolley or tram or train would not solve my problem without an absolutely mind-boggling

Maybe for you. I have no interest in paying for this subscription, but a trolley or tram or train would not solve my problem without an absolutely mind-boggling amount of infrastructure investment, and there are so many things I would rather pay for. I've never enjoyed public transit, here or in Europe. It's a pain in the ass to some degree, no matter how good it is. An individual car is the epitome of freedom, so you would need to convince me (and others who like our cars) why we should swap.

z3ugma 4y ago
> an absolutely mind-boggling amount of infrastructure investment You mean like roads?
- kulahan 3y ago
  You mean those things we already have and already paid for? Yes. Like those.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Yes, the ones that are falling apart and collapsing as we speak. The question is, would we rather continue investing in maintaining and expanding roads which have bankrupted our cities, or would we rather build something different. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/2/28/odot-proposes-that-commuters-pay-6002200-per-year-for-highway-expansion https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/2/28/odot-proposes-...
    - kulahan 3y ago
      We would rather spend a small amount of money maintaining an existing system which supports all dynamic transit systems than throwing them out and using a much more static system. This seems really obvious. Cities aren't bankrupted by roads, roads are what give cities lifelines. Trains and buses are an incredibly poor substitute in all but the densest of regions.
      - foxyv 3y ago
        Roads do provide an economic good. However, having every single individual drive a multi ton vehicle in order to pick up a bag of onions from a supermarket with a 15 acre parking lot doesn't make sense. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/1/26/roads-and-debt https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/1/26/roads-and-debt > Trains and buses are an incredibly poor substitute in all but the densest of regions. This is patently wrong. Buses, trams and trains are the most efficient, safe and affordable forms of transportation known to man. They are superior on every metric I can think of. Combined with last mile micro-mobility and you just can't build a better transportation system. Cars take up more space, kill more people, destroy more land, kill wildlife, and pollute the air. Worse, they are slower due to traffic.
- mwint 4y ago
  Roads are stupid cheap compared to a certain Californian light rail project.
  - foxyv 4y ago
    California spends about $200,000 per mile of highway every year. That comes to about $53.6 billion dollars a year just to maintain those highways. That doesn't even count the capital costs of new projects. That doesn't count the $55 billion dollars in medical bills for people injured in accidents. The billions of dollars that people pay for health care required to treat diseases caused by pollution. The cost in lives, time, and crippling injuries is immense. What do we get for it? Being stuck on the 91 choking on the exhaust.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Roads are stupid cheap compared to a certain Californian light rail project. What California light rail project are you thinking of?
    - foxyv 4y ago
      I think they meant the overly ambitious High Speed Rail project from Los Angeles to Northern California. That is the usual talking point.
perryizgr8 4y ago
> An individual car is the epitome of freedom Nailed it. The car is the symbol of liberty and freedom, and not without reason. People who present public transit as an alternative to cars confound me. I will choose my own car over any kind of public transit every day. I even try to avoid flights if I can drive to my destination in ~12 hours. I can take a lot of luggage, stop and relax at my leisure, have good food, not submit to security checks. Cars are literally better in every single way to train/bus/tram etc.
- foxyv 4y ago
  If you have never lived in a place with good public transit, I can understand why you feel this way. You are literally trapped without a car. Now imagine, tomorrow you are diagnosed with epilepsy, or macular degeneration. Or, your car is destroyed while it's parked on the street and you cannot afford another. If a car is the only form of transportation, your freedom is contingent. Think of what a privilege driving is. Even better, great public transportation makes driving much more pleasurable.
  - kulahan 3y ago
    One of my buddies had a dad who was a parapalegic and he was still much more mobile using his wheelchair and modified van than anyone with a bus could hope to make him. One of these days, you should try traversing 8 blocks in a wheelchair and see how convenient a bus stop feels! lol
    - foxyv 3y ago
      Been there, done that. Kinda weird how dangerous it was with all those cars. If only there had been dedicated pedestrian infrastructure and maybe some sort of micro-mobility device. If only I hadn't needed to cross huge parking lots to reach my destination where cars with huge front hoods and massive A pillars couldn't see me. Being disabled in car dependent cities is hell. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/26/1064764/diversity-linguistics-project-us/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/26/1064764/diversit...

z3ugma 4y ago

> an absolutely mind-boggling amount of infrastructure investment You mean like roads?

kulahan 3y ago
You mean those things we already have and already paid for? Yes. Like those.
- foxyv 3y ago
  Yes, the ones that are falling apart and collapsing as we speak. The question is, would we rather continue investing in maintaining and expanding roads which have bankrupted our cities, or would we rather build something different. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/2/28/odot-proposes-that-commuters-pay-6002200-per-year-for-highway-expansion https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/2/28/odot-proposes-...
  - kulahan 3y ago
    We would rather spend a small amount of money maintaining an existing system which supports all dynamic transit systems than throwing them out and using a much more static system. This seems really obvious. Cities aren't bankrupted by roads, roads are what give cities lifelines. Trains and buses are an incredibly poor substitute in all but the densest of regions.
    - foxyv 3y ago
      Roads do provide an economic good. However, having every single individual drive a multi ton vehicle in order to pick up a bag of onions from a supermarket with a 15 acre parking lot doesn't make sense. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/1/26/roads-and-debt https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/1/26/roads-and-debt > Trains and buses are an incredibly poor substitute in all but the densest of regions. This is patently wrong. Buses, trams and trains are the most efficient, safe and affordable forms of transportation known to man. They are superior on every metric I can think of. Combined with last mile micro-mobility and you just can't build a better transportation system. Cars take up more space, kill more people, destroy more land, kill wildlife, and pollute the air. Worse, they are slower due to traffic.
mwint 4y ago
Roads are stupid cheap compared to a certain Californian light rail project.
- foxyv 4y ago
  California spends about $200,000 per mile of highway every year. That comes to about $53.6 billion dollars a year just to maintain those highways. That doesn't even count the capital costs of new projects. That doesn't count the $55 billion dollars in medical bills for people injured in accidents. The billions of dollars that people pay for health care required to treat diseases caused by pollution. The cost in lives, time, and crippling injuries is immense. What do we get for it? Being stuck on the 91 choking on the exhaust.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Roads are stupid cheap compared to a certain Californian light rail project. What California light rail project are you thinking of?
  - foxyv 4y ago
    I think they meant the overly ambitious High Speed Rail project from Los Angeles to Northern California. That is the usual talking point.

perryizgr8 4y ago

> An individual car is the epitome of freedom Nailed it. The car is the symbol of liberty and freedom, and not without reason. People who present public transit as an alternative to cars confound me. I will choose my own car over any kind of public transit every day. I even try to avoid flights if I can drive to my destination in ~12 hours. I can take a lot of luggage, stop and relax at my leisure, have good food, not submit to security checks. Cars are literally better in every single way to train/bus/tram etc.

foxyv 4y ago
If you have never lived in a place with good public transit, I can understand why you feel this way. You are literally trapped without a car. Now imagine, tomorrow you are diagnosed with epilepsy, or macular degeneration. Or, your car is destroyed while it's parked on the street and you cannot afford another. If a car is the only form of transportation, your freedom is contingent. Think of what a privilege driving is. Even better, great public transportation makes driving much more pleasurable.
- kulahan 3y ago
  One of my buddies had a dad who was a parapalegic and he was still much more mobile using his wheelchair and modified van than anyone with a bus could hope to make him. One of these days, you should try traversing 8 blocks in a wheelchair and see how convenient a bus stop feels! lol
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Been there, done that. Kinda weird how dangerous it was with all those cars. If only there had been dedicated pedestrian infrastructure and maybe some sort of micro-mobility device. If only I hadn't needed to cross huge parking lots to reach my destination where cars with huge front hoods and massive A pillars couldn't see me. Being disabled in car dependent cities is hell. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/26/1064764/diversity-linguistics-project-us/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/26/1064764/diversit...