4 ms·

Are the externalities for wind and solar, the fastest growing electricity sources, significant when compared to other electricity sources?

ajmurmann 3y ago
No, but the externalities of fossil fuels, the worst energy sources, are very significant. Yet these get subsidized in many countries and Germany is even moving to coal. I'm comparison between nuclear and fossil it definitely matters.
- purerandomness 3y ago
  Germany just passed a law to exit coal in 2038. It's called Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz. [1] Last month, Germany also closed down the last nuclear power plant [2] [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsge... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung_der_letzten_drei_Reaktoren https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung...
  - sam_lowry_ 3y ago
    So how are they going to heat their homes?
    - lukeschlather 3y ago
      They plan to have 10GW of hydrogen electrolyzers by 2030, among other storage investments. Assuming they meet that and build 10GW worth of dispatchable storage annually starting in 2028 they should be able to shut down their current ~40GW of coal and ~40GW of gas by 2038.
      - petre 3y ago
        Without nuclear that would probably work the same as their current arrangement is working now. Germany and Denmark currently have the most expensive electricity on the EU.
        purerandomness 3y ago
        That's one of the reasons why we had to shut down the most expensive and inflexible source of energy. Nuclear is the most expensive way you can think of to generate power, but the most expensive power plant unfortunately dictates the price on the energy market in the EU ("Merit-Order") [1] [1] https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/ https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        petre 3y ago
        Yet somehow France manages to stay below the EU mean with 70% nuclear in the mix. The merit order article you have linked is typical lobbist brainwash as to why your country needs to depend on gas when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
    - purerandomness 3y ago
      Simple: Renewables. In 2030, 80% of the generated power should come from renewables [1]. Starting from 2025, each year, 7,8GW of wind and 22GW solar power will be added into the mix. For reference, the nuclear plants we just shut down produced 4GW in total. Germany is exporting excess energy each years to France and other neighbours. 2002 was the last year we had to import energy. [2] [1] https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energien.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energie... [2] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrage/stromimportsaldo-von-deutschland-seit-1990/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrag...
belorn 3y ago
The externalities for wind and solar is the reserve energy that currently consumer expects governments (in EU) to supply and pay for. It is the most expensive form of externalities in the grid, it is one of the dirtiest, and since the government is paying for it it is also the most subsidized. This socialization of costs is sadly mostly unknown to the consumer. Governments could try moving the costs closer to the consumer by putting the costs onto the power company, forcing them to either cut off consumer when demand exceed supply or build enough storage to cover periods of suboptimal weather conditions.

ajmurmann 3y ago

No, but the externalities of fossil fuels, the worst energy sources, are very significant. Yet these get subsidized in many countries and Germany is even moving to coal. I'm comparison between nuclear and fossil it definitely matters.

purerandomness 3y ago
Germany just passed a law to exit coal in 2038. It's called Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz. [1] Last month, Germany also closed down the last nuclear power plant [2] [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsge... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung_der_letzten_drei_Reaktoren https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung...
- sam_lowry_ 3y ago
  So how are they going to heat their homes?
  - lukeschlather 3y ago
    They plan to have 10GW of hydrogen electrolyzers by 2030, among other storage investments. Assuming they meet that and build 10GW worth of dispatchable storage annually starting in 2028 they should be able to shut down their current ~40GW of coal and ~40GW of gas by 2038.
    - petre 3y ago
      Without nuclear that would probably work the same as their current arrangement is working now. Germany and Denmark currently have the most expensive electricity on the EU.
      - purerandomness 3y ago
        That's one of the reasons why we had to shut down the most expensive and inflexible source of energy. Nuclear is the most expensive way you can think of to generate power, but the most expensive power plant unfortunately dictates the price on the energy market in the EU ("Merit-Order") [1] [1] https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/ https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        petre 3y ago
        Yet somehow France manages to stay below the EU mean with 70% nuclear in the mix. The merit order article you have linked is typical lobbist brainwash as to why your country needs to depend on gas when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
  - purerandomness 3y ago
    Simple: Renewables. In 2030, 80% of the generated power should come from renewables [1]. Starting from 2025, each year, 7,8GW of wind and 22GW solar power will be added into the mix. For reference, the nuclear plants we just shut down produced 4GW in total. Germany is exporting excess energy each years to France and other neighbours. 2002 was the last year we had to import energy. [2] [1] https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energien.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energie... [2] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrage/stromimportsaldo-von-deutschland-seit-1990/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrag...

belorn 3y ago

The externalities for wind and solar is the reserve energy that currently consumer expects governments (in EU) to supply and pay for. It is the most expensive form of externalities in the grid, it is one of the dirtiest, and since the government is paying for it it is also the most subsidized. This socialization of costs is sadly mostly unknown to the consumer. Governments could try moving the costs closer to the consumer by putting the costs onto the power company, forcing them to either cut off consumer when demand exceed supply or build enough storage to cover periods of suboptimal weather conditions.