4 ms·

The economics just don't work out. Small reactors still end up being enormously expensive, but without the huge power output of large ones. There is a reason wh

by fsh 3y ago

The economics just don't work out. Small reactors still end up being enormously expensive, but without the huge power output of large ones. There is a reason why all power plants use gigawatt-scale reactors.

dtagames 3y ago
And big ones require government subsidies, tax breaks, and federal insurance since they are uninsurable on their own. Externalities are critical in nuclear and it still doesn't make money for the operators.
- euroderf 3y ago
  If these are modular and come on a truck, does that mean that basically Westinghouse will finance its own inventory, and that for the customer there's just a down payment until it's up and running ? This would change the structure of financing AFAIK.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  It's really unfortunate that we fail to price in negative externalities for other energy sources.
  - legulere 3y ago
    Are the externalities for wind and solar, the fastest growing electricity sources, significant when compared to other electricity sources?
    - ajmurmann 3y ago
      No, but the externalities of fossil fuels, the worst energy sources, are very significant. Yet these get subsidized in many countries and Germany is even moving to coal. I'm comparison between nuclear and fossil it definitely matters.
      - purerandomness 3y ago
        Germany just passed a law to exit coal in 2038. It's called Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz. [1] Last month, Germany also closed down the last nuclear power plant [2] [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsge... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung_der_letzten_drei_Reaktoren https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung...
        sam_lowry_ 3y ago
        So how are they going to heat their homes?
        lukeschlather 3y ago
        They plan to have 10GW of hydrogen electrolyzers by 2030, among other storage investments. Assuming they meet that and build 10GW worth of dispatchable storage annually starting in 2028 they should be able to shut down their current ~40GW of coal and ~40GW of gas by 2038.
        petre 3y ago
        Without nuclear that would probably work the same as their current arrangement is working now. Germany and Denmark currently have the most expensive electricity on the EU.
        purerandomness 3y ago
        That's one of the reasons why we had to shut down the most expensive and inflexible source of energy. Nuclear is the most expensive way you can think of to generate power, but the most expensive power plant unfortunately dictates the price on the energy market in the EU ("Merit-Order") [1] [1] https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/ https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/
    - belorn 3y ago
      The externalities for wind and solar is the reserve energy that currently consumer expects governments (in EU) to supply and pay for. It is the most expensive form of externalities in the grid, it is one of the dirtiest, and since the government is paying for it it is also the most subsidized. This socialization of costs is sadly mostly unknown to the consumer. Governments could try moving the costs closer to the consumer by putting the costs onto the power company, forcing them to either cut off consumer when demand exceed supply or build enough storage to cover periods of suboptimal weather conditions.

by fsh 3y ago

dtagames 3y ago

And big ones require government subsidies, tax breaks, and federal insurance since they are uninsurable on their own. Externalities are critical in nuclear and it still doesn't make money for the operators.

euroderf 3y ago
If these are modular and come on a truck, does that mean that basically Westinghouse will finance its own inventory, and that for the customer there's just a down payment until it's up and running ? This would change the structure of financing AFAIK.
ajmurmann 3y ago
It's really unfortunate that we fail to price in negative externalities for other energy sources.
- legulere 3y ago
  Are the externalities for wind and solar, the fastest growing electricity sources, significant when compared to other electricity sources?
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    No, but the externalities of fossil fuels, the worst energy sources, are very significant. Yet these get subsidized in many countries and Germany is even moving to coal. I'm comparison between nuclear and fossil it definitely matters.
    - purerandomness 3y ago
      Germany just passed a law to exit coal in 2038. It's called Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz. [1] Last month, Germany also closed down the last nuclear power plant [2] [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsgesetz https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohleverstromungsbeendigungsge... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung_der_letzten_drei_Reaktoren https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomausstieg#2023:_Abschaltung...
      - sam_lowry_ 3y ago
        So how are they going to heat their homes?
        lukeschlather 3y ago
        They plan to have 10GW of hydrogen electrolyzers by 2030, among other storage investments. Assuming they meet that and build 10GW worth of dispatchable storage annually starting in 2028 they should be able to shut down their current ~40GW of coal and ~40GW of gas by 2038.
        petre 3y ago
        Without nuclear that would probably work the same as their current arrangement is working now. Germany and Denmark currently have the most expensive electricity on the EU.
        purerandomness 3y ago
        That's one of the reasons why we had to shut down the most expensive and inflexible source of energy. Nuclear is the most expensive way you can think of to generate power, but the most expensive power plant unfortunately dictates the price on the energy market in the EU ("Merit-Order") [1] [1] https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/ https://www.tengelmann-energie.com/merit-order/
  - belorn 3y ago
    The externalities for wind and solar is the reserve energy that currently consumer expects governments (in EU) to supply and pay for. It is the most expensive form of externalities in the grid, it is one of the dirtiest, and since the government is paying for it it is also the most subsidized. This socialization of costs is sadly mostly unknown to the consumer. Governments could try moving the costs closer to the consumer by putting the costs onto the power company, forcing them to either cut off consumer when demand exceed supply or build enough storage to cover periods of suboptimal weather conditions.