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Since there is bound to be a lot of Facebook bashing I’ll point out that they occasionally do some good. In the case of software they can be good stewards of FO

Since there is bound to be a lot of Facebook bashing I’ll point out that they occasionally do some good. In the case of software they can be good stewards of FOSS. I listened to this CoRecursive episode about the history of Zstandard compression algorithm and how FB allowed the author, Yann Collet, to fully open source it while other companies wanted to keep it proprietary. https://corecursive.com/data-compression-yann-collet/ https://corecursive.com/data-compression-yann-collet/ This doesn’t justify or make up for the wrongs that happen because of the social network but the company, and the reasons they want to work there, can be more nuanced.

passwordoops 3y ago
Good points, but it aligns with Shell, for example, making a big deal about investing a few hundred thousand dollars in setting up solar power at one of their least productive refineries. Like, that's great, but...
Waterluvian 3y ago
I wonder if it kind of sucks to recognize that your job in FOSS is just a token gesture. Does FB really care about React’s contribution to the community? Or is it just happy to pay a few salaries to look good?
- anaganisk 3y ago
  FB actively uses it, so it's a win win isn't it?
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    That is a complicated question. They get marketing and a few more eyes delivering bug fixes. However they also get to deal with contributions going not exactly in the direction they want and either have to argue against or take maintenance burden on themselves. Also they limit the changes they can do. An internal framework they can change as they like. They know all users. For different projects that works differently well.
    - AmericanChopper 3y ago
      But this way they get an “internal” framework that they get to exert a lot of influence over, with the added benefit of most of the labor market for those roles already being familiar with it. Building in house tooling adds a lot of cost to onboarding, but this way gets most of those benefits without having to accept that cost.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s even a token gesture. Someone (the author) just cared enough to do the paperwork and set up the meetings + it couldn’t be monetized in a meaningful way. Most companies are mundane boring places.
- kodah 3y ago
  If you spend time around the FOSS arms of most companies the value they see first is in PR, the second is recruiting, the third is free work. The engineers lead the projects out of passion but what the company sees is opportunity.
  - notyourwork 3y ago
    Maybe passion, maybe they lead because of financial compensation. Open source or not, I like my jobs to come with a salary attached.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      Do you lead an open source project?
- munificent 3y ago
  It may be a token gesture to the company itself and at company scale, but still a meaningful act at the scale of the person whose job it is and the community they serve. If you love making an open source thing, and you love its users, at some level it doesn't really matter why Meta pays your paycheck. They're still paying your paycheck while you get to do something you love.
tmpz22 3y ago
Phew thank gif they open sourced a compression library it was worth the privacy of 500_000_000 children being monetized. And where would we be without React? Chaos, chaos everywhere…
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Arrath 3y ago
    While you're not wrong, "it's always been this way" is a poor defense against the desire to make things better.
  - smt88 3y ago
    Every conceivable crime has been around since civilization began, including exploitation of children. If your argument is that it's not a big deal or not a solvable problem, then what's the point of doing anything? Should we ignore every problem because it existed in the past? I just don't understand what these types of comments are supposed to accomplish. It's anti-progress to the point of absurdity.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    Children were put to work in the coalmines since 1700's and dying of blacklung. Somehow society has survived. In medieval times you could rape children, and suffer no consequences. There was no age of concent. Somehow society has survived. Feudal lord had the right to fuck your wife before you, and take her virginity, somehow society has survived. Nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan, somehow society has survived. 1/3 of Europe has died of the plague. Somehow society has survived
    - ZephyrP 3y ago
      This isn't to refute your overarching point, but even the oldest of stories, the 'Epic of Gilgamesh', begins with the titular character accused of not "leaving maidens to their warriors", leading the gods (and people) of Ur to try to end his reign. I think the story makes it clear - this behavior was totally unacceptable for a king, even in what the Sumerians considered "those ancient days, when bread had been tasted for the first time".
snarf21 3y ago
All things in life is grey. But I think we should ask about is the MAIN thing they do net good or net bad. Most philanthropist spend their lives amassing massive fortunes built on exploitation and then leave a (large?) percentage of their ill gotten gains for good. As an extreme example, we shouldn't absolve a serial killer just because they volunteer for Meals on Wheels each week. Facebook has revenue greater than the GDP of all but 67 countries. Allowing 10 engineers to give away some crap for free doesn't quite balance the scales imo.
- sgregnt 3y ago
  Built on exploitation? In my opinion built on utility supplied to customers.
  - vkou 3y ago
    Actually, it's built on users supplied to advertisers. --- Facebook's utility for me is now near zero, possibly negative. I'm only there because mom is there. Mom's only there because her friends are there. Moving out of that morass - at least, until mom stops using computers is impossible. At least with Amazon, Google, Netflix, Apple, Microsoft, etc, I (currently) have meaningful alternatives. Network effects suck.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > I'm only there because mom is there. Why should that keep you there, though? She's your mother. Surely, you can talk with her directly even if she is on Facebook.
      - scrum-treats 3y ago
        I'm only there because FB requires a current photo of me alongside a picture of my government issued ID in order to "regain access" to my account in order to deactivate it. How this is legal is astonishing.
      - kingTug 3y ago
eis 3y ago
I guess even a psychopath might leave a tip at a restaurant. Things rarely are 100% bad but those nuances should also not distract from the big picture.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I’m earnestly curious, what do you think is the root of your reaction or desire or instinct to defend Meta?
- RangerScience 3y ago
  Not GP - While I think your question is polite and otherwise undeserving of a downvote, I don’t think it’s a fair question. I don’t read GP as defending Meta, and I think there’s substantial problems that arise if pointing out good things equates to defending associated bad things. IMHO it’s the strict inverse of disallowing pointing out the bad things within otherwise good things (afaik, a main component of toxic positivity)
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    I’m not sure I follow the last point but you are of course correct that the question itself is based on the premise that Meta is under scrutiny and the social “state” for lack of a better term (think state and transition) is “on public trial.” So in that sense, yes it’s a loaded question, however I think it’s a valid contextual assumption given the context of the article and comments.
    - RangerScience 3y ago
      > (think state and transition) I completely don't follow this - I think you're referencing something I'm unfamiliar with?
      - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/150120/definition-of-state https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/1501...
        davorak 3y ago
        If I understanding you correctly you are saying that Meta's reputation is on public trial, which I think is accurate.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bdcravens 3y ago
Enron was very charitable. https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/enron-s-philanthropy-will-be-missed https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/enron-s-philanthropy...
jszymborski 3y ago
When people bring up the philanthropic endeavours of FAANG, Oil & Gas, Tabacco companies and their ilk, it just reminds me of the mobster that gives a turkey at Christmas to the families whose businesses they've extorted and family members they've killed. Also, to the point of OSS, let's not forget all the free bug fixes and labour they get from the community at large for having open-sourced their software.

passwordoops 3y ago

Good points, but it aligns with Shell, for example, making a big deal about investing a few hundred thousand dollars in setting up solar power at one of their least productive refineries. Like, that's great, but...

Waterluvian 3y ago

I wonder if it kind of sucks to recognize that your job in FOSS is just a token gesture. Does FB really care about React’s contribution to the community? Or is it just happy to pay a few salaries to look good?

anaganisk 3y ago
FB actively uses it, so it's a win win isn't it?
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  That is a complicated question. They get marketing and a few more eyes delivering bug fixes. However they also get to deal with contributions going not exactly in the direction they want and either have to argue against or take maintenance burden on themselves. Also they limit the changes they can do. An internal framework they can change as they like. They know all users. For different projects that works differently well.
  - AmericanChopper 3y ago
    But this way they get an “internal” framework that they get to exert a lot of influence over, with the added benefit of most of the labor market for those roles already being familiar with it. Building in house tooling adds a lot of cost to onboarding, but this way gets most of those benefits without having to accept that cost.
liquidpele 3y ago
I don’t think it’s even a token gesture. Someone (the author) just cared enough to do the paperwork and set up the meetings + it couldn’t be monetized in a meaningful way. Most companies are mundane boring places.
kodah 3y ago
If you spend time around the FOSS arms of most companies the value they see first is in PR, the second is recruiting, the third is free work. The engineers lead the projects out of passion but what the company sees is opportunity.
- notyourwork 3y ago
  Maybe passion, maybe they lead because of financial compensation. Open source or not, I like my jobs to come with a salary attached.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    Do you lead an open source project?
munificent 3y ago
It may be a token gesture to the company itself and at company scale, but still a meaningful act at the scale of the person whose job it is and the community they serve. If you love making an open source thing, and you love its users, at some level it doesn't really matter why Meta pays your paycheck. They're still paying your paycheck while you get to do something you love.

tmpz22 3y ago

Phew thank gif they open sourced a compression library it was worth the privacy of 500_000_000 children being monetized. And where would we be without React? Chaos, chaos everywhere…

zeroonetwothree 3y ago
[flagged]
- Arrath 3y ago
  While you're not wrong, "it's always been this way" is a poor defense against the desire to make things better.
- smt88 3y ago
  Every conceivable crime has been around since civilization began, including exploitation of children. If your argument is that it's not a big deal or not a solvable problem, then what's the point of doing anything? Should we ignore every problem because it existed in the past? I just don't understand what these types of comments are supposed to accomplish. It's anti-progress to the point of absurdity.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Children were put to work in the coalmines since 1700's and dying of blacklung. Somehow society has survived. In medieval times you could rape children, and suffer no consequences. There was no age of concent. Somehow society has survived. Feudal lord had the right to fuck your wife before you, and take her virginity, somehow society has survived. Nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan, somehow society has survived. 1/3 of Europe has died of the plague. Somehow society has survived
  - ZephyrP 3y ago
    This isn't to refute your overarching point, but even the oldest of stories, the 'Epic of Gilgamesh', begins with the titular character accused of not "leaving maidens to their warriors", leading the gods (and people) of Ur to try to end his reign. I think the story makes it clear - this behavior was totally unacceptable for a king, even in what the Sumerians considered "those ancient days, when bread had been tasted for the first time".

snarf21 3y ago

All things in life is grey. But I think we should ask about is the MAIN thing they do net good or net bad. Most philanthropist spend their lives amassing massive fortunes built on exploitation and then leave a (large?) percentage of their ill gotten gains for good. As an extreme example, we shouldn't absolve a serial killer just because they volunteer for Meals on Wheels each week. Facebook has revenue greater than the GDP of all but 67 countries. Allowing 10 engineers to give away some crap for free doesn't quite balance the scales imo.

sgregnt 3y ago
Built on exploitation? In my opinion built on utility supplied to customers.
- vkou 3y ago
  Actually, it's built on users supplied to advertisers. --- Facebook's utility for me is now near zero, possibly negative. I'm only there because mom is there. Mom's only there because her friends are there. Moving out of that morass - at least, until mom stops using computers is impossible. At least with Amazon, Google, Netflix, Apple, Microsoft, etc, I (currently) have meaningful alternatives. Network effects suck.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > I'm only there because mom is there. Why should that keep you there, though? She's your mother. Surely, you can talk with her directly even if she is on Facebook.
    - scrum-treats 3y ago
      I'm only there because FB requires a current photo of me alongside a picture of my government issued ID in order to "regain access" to my account in order to deactivate it. How this is legal is astonishing.
    - kingTug 3y ago

eis 3y ago

I guess even a psychopath might leave a tip at a restaurant. Things rarely are 100% bad but those nuances should also not distract from the big picture.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

I’m earnestly curious, what do you think is the root of your reaction or desire or instinct to defend Meta?

RangerScience 3y ago
Not GP - While I think your question is polite and otherwise undeserving of a downvote, I don’t think it’s a fair question. I don’t read GP as defending Meta, and I think there’s substantial problems that arise if pointing out good things equates to defending associated bad things. IMHO it’s the strict inverse of disallowing pointing out the bad things within otherwise good things (afaik, a main component of toxic positivity)
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I’m not sure I follow the last point but you are of course correct that the question itself is based on the premise that Meta is under scrutiny and the social “state” for lack of a better term (think state and transition) is “on public trial.” So in that sense, yes it’s a loaded question, however I think it’s a valid contextual assumption given the context of the article and comments.
  - RangerScience 3y ago
    > (think state and transition) I completely don't follow this - I think you're referencing something I'm unfamiliar with?
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/150120/definition-of-state https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/1501...
      - davorak 3y ago
        If I understanding you correctly you are saying that Meta's reputation is on public trial, which I think is accurate.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bdcravens 3y ago

Enron was very charitable. https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/enron-s-philanthropy-will-be-missed https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/enron-s-philanthropy...

jszymborski 3y ago

When people bring up the philanthropic endeavours of FAANG, Oil & Gas, Tabacco companies and their ilk, it just reminds me of the mobster that gives a turkey at Christmas to the families whose businesses they've extorted and family members they've killed. Also, to the point of OSS, let's not forget all the free bug fixes and labour they get from the community at large for having open-sourced their software.