7 ms·

> Landlords, under this bill, would be banned from collecting biometric data on anyone unless they have “expressly consented” in writing or through a mobile app

> Landlords, under this bill, would be banned from collecting biometric data on anyone unless they have “expressly consented” in writing or through a mobile app. Even if it probably started from good intentions, this sounds more like CYA when the biometrics and surveillance data gets leaked given it's not really consent when they'll just refuse to rent to anyone who doesn't agree to the data collection.

JustSomeNobody 3y ago
> ... in writing or through a mobile app. Great, so now tenant is required to have the app to pay rent. But to use the app to pay rent, you have to agree to the ToS which includes expressly consenting to having your bio data scooped up.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  I am already mildly aggravated about app only menu at some restaurants ( and promptly leave if I can't get basic service from the waiter ), but there is something to be said about requiring app for an actual necessity ( eating at a restaurant isn't a necessity ), where one can't simply walk away.
matsemann 3y ago
GDPR is nice in this regard: Consent isn't enough. The consent must be freely given (aka no stipulation saying you can't rent without accepting), informed (aka you should be told all your rights and what's included in your consent, just not a general "by signing the rental agreement you're accepting us collecting your data"), and they can't even collect the data unless they have a legitimate use for it (which again someone could challenge, the landlord doesn't need to know when I come&go to do their job).
- UweSchmidt 3y ago
  All of that might not be enough. Renters might still find they are in a weak position to negotiate a contract details like that, if they even comprehend the full meaning and consequences. Landlords will figure out the "Legitimate use" legalese and paste it in each contract, and it is in the nature of data collection that mose abuse goes unnoticed. Casual surveillance and the landlord-renter power dynamic are things that should be established at the society-level.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    That’s not how “freely given consent” works. Freely given means that consent is given in a way that it does not affect any other aspect of the transaction. There is no negotiation to be made. I would imagine that a competent legal system would never allow it to be attached to a separate contract since it then becomes consideration as part of a separate transaction.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    > Landlords will figure out the "Legitimate use" legalese and paste it in each contract I have no doubt that they will. However, ultimately they will end up on this list https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ (or they were in the US and so it was irrelevant). > and it is in the nature of data collection that mose abuse goes unnoticed. Unnoticed by the average person maybe but people honestly think GDPR has had no _absolutely zero_ effect as well; doesn't make them correct.
- judge2020 3y ago
  > (aka no stipulation saying you can't rent without accepting) Is this specifically for landlords, or are companies forced to serve you even if you reject data collection? Also, will this actually be enforced in practice? Websites with n > 1 million users are one thing, but landlords / apartment management companies with a few hundred units are going to be tough to go after one by one.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    It's all organizations. Data collection cannot be a stipulation to receive full service. It must be completely optional and opt-in.
    - jacooper 3y ago
      That's why the reject all button exists right?
    - bombcar 3y ago
      You just make a "required need" and installing a biometric access to the building might be enough to trigger that.
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        Plus the nice, fancy buildings will require it as a de rigueur add-on. "we only let in the best, and we offer top security, so that means retinal scans and facial recognition"
- rolph 3y ago
  if the rental application, looks like im installing windows, im renting elswhere.
- tpxl 3y ago
  > they can't even collect the data unless they have a legitimate use for it They can collect any and all data if you give free and informed consent. They do not need consent to collect data with a legitimate interest, but they do need to inform you of it.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    No, actually not. GDPR also has rules related to "data minimisation", aka you shouldn't collect data you don't need.
    - tpxl 3y ago
      Got a source for that?
      - matsemann 3y ago
        GDPR article 5.1c https://gdpr-text.com/read/article-5/#related_gdpr-a-05_1c https://gdpr-text.com/read/article-5/#related_gdpr-a-05_1c
        tpxl 3y ago
        This article and data minimisation don't mean you can't collect information, they just say you can't collect more than what you need for the specific purpose. If the specific purpose is ad targeting via a bunch of data from tracking and you have a lawful basis (ie. consent) for it, there is no problem, as far as you're really using (and need to use) that data for ad targeting.
brvsft 3y ago
Yeah, unfortunately, the agreement will make its rounds into boilerplate leases soon enough.
lisasays 3y ago
They'll just refuse to rent to anyone who doesn't agree to the data collection. Fortunately they won't "just" be allowed to do that. Tenant law is quite robust in NYC, and most likely such requirements (or even asking about them) will be prohibited as well.

JustSomeNobody 3y ago

> ... in writing or through a mobile app. Great, so now tenant is required to have the app to pay rent. But to use the app to pay rent, you have to agree to the ToS which includes expressly consenting to having your bio data scooped up.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
I am already mildly aggravated about app only menu at some restaurants ( and promptly leave if I can't get basic service from the waiter ), but there is something to be said about requiring app for an actual necessity ( eating at a restaurant isn't a necessity ), where one can't simply walk away.

matsemann 3y ago

GDPR is nice in this regard: Consent isn't enough. The consent must be freely given (aka no stipulation saying you can't rent without accepting), informed (aka you should be told all your rights and what's included in your consent, just not a general "by signing the rental agreement you're accepting us collecting your data"), and they can't even collect the data unless they have a legitimate use for it (which again someone could challenge, the landlord doesn't need to know when I come&go to do their job).

UweSchmidt 3y ago
All of that might not be enough. Renters might still find they are in a weak position to negotiate a contract details like that, if they even comprehend the full meaning and consequences. Landlords will figure out the "Legitimate use" legalese and paste it in each contract, and it is in the nature of data collection that mose abuse goes unnoticed. Casual surveillance and the landlord-renter power dynamic are things that should be established at the society-level.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  That’s not how “freely given consent” works. Freely given means that consent is given in a way that it does not affect any other aspect of the transaction. There is no negotiation to be made. I would imagine that a competent legal system would never allow it to be attached to a separate contract since it then becomes consideration as part of a separate transaction.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  > Landlords will figure out the "Legitimate use" legalese and paste it in each contract I have no doubt that they will. However, ultimately they will end up on this list https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ (or they were in the US and so it was irrelevant). > and it is in the nature of data collection that mose abuse goes unnoticed. Unnoticed by the average person maybe but people honestly think GDPR has had no _absolutely zero_ effect as well; doesn't make them correct.
judge2020 3y ago
> (aka no stipulation saying you can't rent without accepting) Is this specifically for landlords, or are companies forced to serve you even if you reject data collection? Also, will this actually be enforced in practice? Websites with n > 1 million users are one thing, but landlords / apartment management companies with a few hundred units are going to be tough to go after one by one.
- flangola7 3y ago
  It's all organizations. Data collection cannot be a stipulation to receive full service. It must be completely optional and opt-in.
  - jacooper 3y ago
    That's why the reject all button exists right?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    You just make a "required need" and installing a biometric access to the building might be enough to trigger that.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      Plus the nice, fancy buildings will require it as a de rigueur add-on. "we only let in the best, and we offer top security, so that means retinal scans and facial recognition"
rolph 3y ago
if the rental application, looks like im installing windows, im renting elswhere.
tpxl 3y ago
> they can't even collect the data unless they have a legitimate use for it They can collect any and all data if you give free and informed consent. They do not need consent to collect data with a legitimate interest, but they do need to inform you of it.
- matsemann 3y ago
  No, actually not. GDPR also has rules related to "data minimisation", aka you shouldn't collect data you don't need.
  - tpxl 3y ago
    Got a source for that?
    - matsemann 3y ago
      GDPR article 5.1c https://gdpr-text.com/read/article-5/#related_gdpr-a-05_1c https://gdpr-text.com/read/article-5/#related_gdpr-a-05_1c
      - tpxl 3y ago
        This article and data minimisation don't mean you can't collect information, they just say you can't collect more than what you need for the specific purpose. If the specific purpose is ad targeting via a bunch of data from tracking and you have a lawful basis (ie. consent) for it, there is no problem, as far as you're really using (and need to use) that data for ad targeting.

brvsft 3y ago

Yeah, unfortunately, the agreement will make its rounds into boilerplate leases soon enough.

lisasays 3y ago

They'll just refuse to rent to anyone who doesn't agree to the data collection. Fortunately they won't "just" be allowed to do that. Tenant law is quite robust in NYC, and most likely such requirements (or even asking about them) will be prohibited as well.