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"Bullshit jobs" [1] are a suboptimal and implicit mean to deliver on UBI without superficially changing the rules of capitalism. For exhibit 2, I'll bring in th

"Bullshit jobs" [1] are a suboptimal and implicit mean to deliver on UBI without superficially changing the rules of capitalism. For exhibit 2, I'll bring in the US military and its economic impact on the midwest. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

monero-xmr 3y ago
The US military is not capitalism. That’s socialism - a job and industry fully dependent on the government and thus is a politically created career. Bullshit jobs don’t exist in the free market, as no capitalist would pay for someone to do something useless. If that is happening it would certainly be because a government regulator required someone to sit there twiddling thumbs.
- mochomocha 3y ago
  > Bullshit jobs don’t exist in the free market, as no capitalist would pay for someone to do something useless And yet if you spend any time in any large corporation, you'll find countless examples of these, including in the tech industry. Don't you have any friend working for Google/Meta/${big tech co}? Bullshit jobs can and definitely exist with capitalism: any successful and large business is filled with them.
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    They may exist for a while but when push comes to shove, they will be eliminated. The government is the one with the real problem - there are bureaucrats who gladly do nothing all day every day, or even actively harm industry, and they can never be fired and exist as barnacles.
    - mochomocha 3y ago
      > They may exist for a while I don't think we should be interested in the "asymptotic theoretical limit" of capitalism which is never reached. Let's discuss "capitalism in practice", not "capitalism in theory". If things self-correct in a time frame longer than your own lifespan, do you think it's an ideal scenario? I personally don't. I don't see the government forcing Google to pay thousands of highly qualified workers to fill in BS jobs. This is a natural consequence of being a very successful business: complacency, empire building, etc all decorellated from economic incentives. People spend decades with BS jobs in a very capitalist society. Note that I've never argued that a socialist alternative is any better or that the government isn't filled with BS jobs either. I just observe that the problem manifests itself regardless.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        > If things self-correct in a time frame longer than your own lifespan, do you think it's an ideal scenario? If there is not a better option, then yes.
- MatekCopatek 3y ago
  > no capitalist would pay for someone to do something useless The issue here is definition of useful/useless. If you manage to market regular rocks as magical and convince people to pay a lot of money for them, a capitalist will gladly pay for everything from digging to shipping of those rocks. From a common sense perspective that activity is useless because it's purely wasting resources with no useful effect. From a capitalist perspective the activity is not useless as it brings profit.
  - flappyeagle 3y ago
    It’s axiomatic. If someone is willing to pay then it’s by definition not useless. Pet rocks are fine as a luxury good. That’s what a wedding ring is.

monero-xmr 3y ago

The US military is not capitalism. That’s socialism - a job and industry fully dependent on the government and thus is a politically created career. Bullshit jobs don’t exist in the free market, as no capitalist would pay for someone to do something useless. If that is happening it would certainly be because a government regulator required someone to sit there twiddling thumbs.

mochomocha 3y ago
> Bullshit jobs don’t exist in the free market, as no capitalist would pay for someone to do something useless And yet if you spend any time in any large corporation, you'll find countless examples of these, including in the tech industry. Don't you have any friend working for Google/Meta/${big tech co}? Bullshit jobs can and definitely exist with capitalism: any successful and large business is filled with them.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  They may exist for a while but when push comes to shove, they will be eliminated. The government is the one with the real problem - there are bureaucrats who gladly do nothing all day every day, or even actively harm industry, and they can never be fired and exist as barnacles.
  - mochomocha 3y ago
    > They may exist for a while I don't think we should be interested in the "asymptotic theoretical limit" of capitalism which is never reached. Let's discuss "capitalism in practice", not "capitalism in theory". If things self-correct in a time frame longer than your own lifespan, do you think it's an ideal scenario? I personally don't. I don't see the government forcing Google to pay thousands of highly qualified workers to fill in BS jobs. This is a natural consequence of being a very successful business: complacency, empire building, etc all decorellated from economic incentives. People spend decades with BS jobs in a very capitalist society. Note that I've never argued that a socialist alternative is any better or that the government isn't filled with BS jobs either. I just observe that the problem manifests itself regardless.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      > If things self-correct in a time frame longer than your own lifespan, do you think it's an ideal scenario? If there is not a better option, then yes.
MatekCopatek 3y ago
> no capitalist would pay for someone to do something useless The issue here is definition of useful/useless. If you manage to market regular rocks as magical and convince people to pay a lot of money for them, a capitalist will gladly pay for everything from digging to shipping of those rocks. From a common sense perspective that activity is useless because it's purely wasting resources with no useful effect. From a capitalist perspective the activity is not useless as it brings profit.
- flappyeagle 3y ago
  It’s axiomatic. If someone is willing to pay then it’s by definition not useless. Pet rocks are fine as a luxury good. That’s what a wedding ring is.