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Don't you want software upgrades? cars are loaded with technology, some of it is for "fun" like navigation of music services, but a lot if for safety reasons an
by 2rsf 3y ago
Don't you want software upgrades? cars are loaded with technology, some of it is for "fun" like navigation of music services, but a lot if for safety reasons and this requires frequent updating.
- Guthur 3y agoNo it doesn't, if it isn't safe already it shouldn't be on the road and needs a recall.
- _yb2s 3y agoI want it to be simple and well tested so it doesn’t need updates, just like the physical parts of the car.
- fowtowmowcow 3y agoEven with the best programmers and safety measures in the world NASA still had to update the space shuttle. https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/flyout/flyfeature_shuttlecomputers.html https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/flyout/flyfeature...
- 2rsf 3y agoAnd the Curiosity Mars Rover
- jimnotgym 3y agoThat's OK, they can plug in and update during the annual service.
- _yb2s 3y agoI expect a car manufacturer to do extensive real world testing in all possible conditions- heat, traffic, etc. before selling it. A spaceship needs to work perfectly the first time, the actual use is also the only real world test of the prototype. It’s also a much harder problem… cars are much simpler and well understood “mature” tech where we have over a century of real world experience on what type of failures are possible and how to mitigate them.
- fowtowmowcow 3y agoYou know what's also cool. A mechanical engineer can lose their license if their work results in deaths. A software engineer can't lose their license because they don't have one. Perhaps a professional license may improve software development and thus better software in consumer products like cars where bad software design can result in deaths.
- _yb2s 3y agoI don't think it would need to apply to all SWEs, but would make sense for safety critical things like firmware that runs vehicles, roads, bridges, etc. Certainly the sort of systems that interact with or control other systems already requiring a PE. BioE doesn't have anything like that yet either.
- fowtowmowcow 3y agoI agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomedical_engineering#Training_and_certification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomedical_engineering#Trainin... Looks like while there is not a particular license for BioE they can be licensed under other disciplines.
- 2rsf 3y agoSimple means no advanced safety, comfort and other features, once software is involved it will never be tested enough especially at the price point cars are sold at.
- _yb2s 3y agoExactly. I have zero interest in "advanced features" which is why I still drive vintage high end european cars I maintain myself, and not a Tesla. Nearly all cars since the mid 70s have had plenty of very simple software on board in each of the control modules- ABS, fuel injection, ignition, etc. and it works flawlessly in widespread global use for decades with no issues because it is so simple. These things are so simple it's virtually impossible to have a flaw that can't be found in extensive on road testing. In very rare cases where a flaw is found, it is updated at dealerships via recall. Easy quick and frequent updates done modern silicon valley style are dangerous and absurd for something as safety critical as a vehicle. Things are practically guaranteed to intermittently break while you own the vehicle, because there is no way the extensive factory testing is repeated for each minor update.
- 2rsf 3y agoHave you read the NASA investigation of the Toyota’s unintended acceleration accidents? It’s millions of lines of not properly tested spaghetti code. But I admit that it mostly worked pretty well. Unfortunately modern cars are significantly safer than vintage ones so we are stuck with complex software for better and for worse
- _yb2s 3y agoI have not, but if I remember correctly, it ended up being a physical problem (floor mats) and not a software problem? Most vehicle ECUs are traditionally made with very simple C or assembly software that simply maps inputs to outputs via a lookup table... and the same basic ECU firmware is used for decades and shared by numerous car manufacturers (e.g. almost all cars use BOSCH fuel injection ECUs). If they have a complex algorithm or model to generate these tables, that code never goes on the ECU itself, to minimize the complexity and make it reliable and predictable. So the car manufacturer doesn't even develop any code, they only produce a table of numbers for flashing into the ECU, eliminating the possibility of algorithm errors. Once you physically test in diverse conditions that hit every possible value in the lookup table, there is very little room for an unexpected problem to pop up later on. Recalls updating the ECU tables have been mostly to reduce emissions and improve performance, but the vehicle still works fine under all conditions without it. One thing I find really fascinating, is that old fashioned diesel engines had a mechanical injector pump, which was basically a sort of simple mechanical computer that in some sense works the same as described above. All vehicles pretty much used the same pump, but each had different "lookup tables" physically machined into a steel block as a curved ramp. I like the philosophy explained in this article, that mentions Dieter Rams thoughts on the Porsche 911 design: https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/design-furniture/minimalist-functionalist-influential-designs-dieter-rams https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/design-furniture/mi... I don't buy the idea that this philosophy can't be applied to make safe and modern electric vehicles.
- Faaak 3y agoYou can still update physically without needing OTA stuff
- 2rsf 3y agoYou can, my Polestar allows you to skip OTA and ask a service center to do it for you or not at all.
- verdverm 3y agoI paid for Windows once and continue to get updates. Same for my eInk tablet. Why should my car not be the same?
- incone123 3y agoLeaving aside that your car shouldn't need updates for the basic function of going faster when you push the accelerator, do you want to have an unskippable advert played on the car's display before you can pull away?
- 2rsf 3y agoIt’s coming sooner or later isn’t it? For the right price I might consider that, yes
- verdverm 3y agoWhy would my car, that I purchased, have ads at all?
- lp0_on_fire 3y agoFor the same reason windows pro shows me ads in the start menu and pesters me to purchase office 365.
- verdverm 3y agoMaybe for the same reason, but not equivalent. We have become relatively ad blind on our digital devices, pushing ads into the car infotainment system is going to make for lots of angry customers. That being said, big-auto is pretty dumb, behind the times, and hasn't figured out how to evolve at the pace they need to. I will not be surprised if some of them try this. Still, I don't want to have subscriptions for basic auto features like heated seats and how fast the car can go. I don't even like that Tesla makes you pay for access to the full battery, but at least that is a one-time purchase.
- indymike 3y ago> Don't you want software upgrades? Yes, but that doesn't require I give up freedom or control. The number of years a vendor provides upgrades adds value to the product (i.e. long term commitment or not). The cost of a car is so ridiculous any more that expecting a lifetime of software updates is probably a rational demand from a consumer. > but a lot if for safety reasons Yes, so? I wrote software for vascular ultrasound devices in the 80s. Those could do really bad things to humans. Upgrades were provided for free and accounted for in the price of the product because... SAFETY IS NOT OPTIONAL and should never be relegated to a subscription where if you stop paying YOU ARE UNSAFE.
- 2rsf 3y agoThe current price reflects the expected software support, at some point it will be not economical and not feasible on the existing hardware. The best example is the interface- cellular 2G is not supported and 3G will go away one day. Vascular ultrasound devices are still supported because they were expensive, and support was probably paid on top of the initial price. The Mercedes HP subscription is not safety related, but it is true that at some point stopping updates will have some affects on safety, but don't forget that "legacy" cars locked you with its initial hardware and software, many times only later models upgraded safety feature based on experience.
- frumper 3y agoThere is a difference between what we shipped is defective and that defect makes it unsafe and we could update it and bring new safety features. Defects are addressed in recalls, they are expensive, automakers plan for some amount of them, they should try to minimize that as much as possible, but recalls are screw ups, not bonus updates.
- indymike 3y ago> Vascular ultrasound devices are still supported because they were expensive, and support was probably paid on top of the initial price. I'm sure 80s and early 90s era vascular ultrasound devices are long obsolete, out of service and not supported. The point is cars are VERY expensive these day. It is ridiculous that a product that costs $35,000 has a $30/mo subscription for updates or features. This is majoring in the minors.
- southwesterly 3y agoNo. I don’t want software upgrades. I want a vehicle that moves me from A to B with the least environmental disruption as possible. If this can’t happen then I’m cycling or taking the bus.
- smileysteve 3y agoMore acutely, cars have been been able to get software updates for 25+ years. The dealer had the software and would update it for free (typically part of a recall) on my 2004 bmw, you can get this software and tune for only premium fuel (less safety)