4 ms·

What part of "equal under the law" did they sleep through in grade school? I understand that thinking is hard and it's much easier to just adopt the opinions pr

What part of "equal under the law" did they sleep through in grade school? I understand that thinking is hard and it's much easier to just adopt the opinions presented by someone who gets paid by advertising products to you. But please try to think this one through. Arbitrary punishment based on class or wealth or any other factor not related to the crime is a hallmark of a banana republic, not a civilised society. Parking fines are a Trojan Horse - once such a scheme is adopted, it will be applied throughout the legal system.

archagon 3y ago
Then the well-off will just do whatever the fuck they want for a small “service charge”.
- 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
  No, they won't. That is not rational thinking. You could probably afford one parking ticket per year, so do you go out and deliberately double park once a year? Quick sanity check - Any time you see/hear "rich people will do X" or "rich people should do X", just replace "rich people" with "I" to see if it makes sense. Just because someone has more than you does not make them any better or worse of a person than you. Same goes for the contrary, just because someone has less than you...
  - archagon 3y ago
    They already do. And the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to have sociopathic, psychopathic, and narcissistic traits: * https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduces-compassion/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduce... * https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-psychopaths-australian-study-finds/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-... (Sure, call these pop sci if you want, but I'm not going to seek out primary sources for the sake of an internet comment.) > just replace "rich people" with "I" to see if it makes sense Would I become more of an asshole if I had orders of magnitude more money than the average person? It certainly wouldn't surprise me. At the very least, my ego would get quite inflated.
    - 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
      As you're already aware of the value and reliability of citing pop-sci and tabloid sources, I won't highlight it except to point out that even if the data holds (a big if), correlation does not equal causation. And thank you for confirming my suspicion that your argument was more projection than reality. > Would I become more of an asshole if I had orders of magnitude more money than the average person? It certainly wouldn't surprise me. At the very least, my ego would get quite inflated.
      - archagon 3y ago
        Correlation or causation makes no difference here. Regardless of whether you become an asshole by being rich, get rich by being an asshole, or become an asshole for separate wealth-correlated reasons, you will still be more likely to do things like park illegaly, and also have the means to treat any fixed-rate fine as a mosquito bite.
  - rstuart4133 3y ago
    > No, they won't. That is not rational thinking. You could probably afford one parking ticket per year, so do you go out and deliberately double park once a year? Steve Jobs did effectively that: https://conceptdrop.com/blog/43-10-shocking-facts-about-steve-jobs/ https://conceptdrop.com/blog/43-10-shocking-facts-about-stev... Jobs was infamous for parking in the handicapped slot in the parking lot and for driving a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG with a blank license plate. But how?
dirtyid 3y ago
Being fined X hours worth of income is also equal. Fines, i.e. losing money is second order approxmiation to IMO the equal punishment of losing time. Which can still be gamed by the rich, but if the wealthy do end up going to jail, they serve at least meaningful time where consequences are felt vs current fines that may has well be 5 seconds in the drunk tank.
rstuart4133 3y ago
Depends on how you define "equal". Both "you are fined $1", and "you are fined 1% of your income" sound like fair stabs at equal to me. Imprisonment deprives you of 100% of your income, so it's more like the latter. As for your "banana republic" quip, Finland does this and I'd place them very much as the "not banana republic" end of the spectrum. Famously, this https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/in-finland-speeding-tickets-are-linked-to-your-income/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/in-finland-speeding-t... : In 2002, Anssi Vanjoki, a former Nokia director, was ordered to pay a fine of 116,000 euros ($103,600) after being caught driving 75km/h in a 50km/h zone on his motorbike. All that said, I doubt the $103,000 had much effect on Anssi as say $1000 would have on me. I need want to spend that $1000 one day on food or housing. Anssi was making so much, my guess it's sole effect would be on how much his kids inherited.

archagon 3y ago

Then the well-off will just do whatever the fuck they want for a small “service charge”.

0xbadc0de5 3y ago
No, they won't. That is not rational thinking. You could probably afford one parking ticket per year, so do you go out and deliberately double park once a year? Quick sanity check - Any time you see/hear "rich people will do X" or "rich people should do X", just replace "rich people" with "I" to see if it makes sense. Just because someone has more than you does not make them any better or worse of a person than you. Same goes for the contrary, just because someone has less than you...
- archagon 3y ago
  They already do. And the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to have sociopathic, psychopathic, and narcissistic traits: * https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduces-compassion/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduce... * https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-psychopaths-australian-study-finds/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-... (Sure, call these pop sci if you want, but I'm not going to seek out primary sources for the sake of an internet comment.) > just replace "rich people" with "I" to see if it makes sense Would I become more of an asshole if I had orders of magnitude more money than the average person? It certainly wouldn't surprise me. At the very least, my ego would get quite inflated.
  - 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
    As you're already aware of the value and reliability of citing pop-sci and tabloid sources, I won't highlight it except to point out that even if the data holds (a big if), correlation does not equal causation. And thank you for confirming my suspicion that your argument was more projection than reality. > Would I become more of an asshole if I had orders of magnitude more money than the average person? It certainly wouldn't surprise me. At the very least, my ego would get quite inflated.
    - archagon 3y ago
      Correlation or causation makes no difference here. Regardless of whether you become an asshole by being rich, get rich by being an asshole, or become an asshole for separate wealth-correlated reasons, you will still be more likely to do things like park illegaly, and also have the means to treat any fixed-rate fine as a mosquito bite.
- rstuart4133 3y ago
  > No, they won't. That is not rational thinking. You could probably afford one parking ticket per year, so do you go out and deliberately double park once a year? Steve Jobs did effectively that: https://conceptdrop.com/blog/43-10-shocking-facts-about-steve-jobs/ https://conceptdrop.com/blog/43-10-shocking-facts-about-stev... Jobs was infamous for parking in the handicapped slot in the parking lot and for driving a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG with a blank license plate. But how?

dirtyid 3y ago

Being fined X hours worth of income is also equal. Fines, i.e. losing money is second order approxmiation to IMO the equal punishment of losing time. Which can still be gamed by the rich, but if the wealthy do end up going to jail, they serve at least meaningful time where consequences are felt vs current fines that may has well be 5 seconds in the drunk tank.

rstuart4133 3y ago

Depends on how you define "equal". Both "you are fined $1", and "you are fined 1% of your income" sound like fair stabs at equal to me. Imprisonment deprives you of 100% of your income, so it's more like the latter. As for your "banana republic" quip, Finland does this and I'd place them very much as the "not banana republic" end of the spectrum. Famously, this https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/in-finland-speeding-tickets-are-linked-to-your-income/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/in-finland-speeding-t... : In 2002, Anssi Vanjoki, a former Nokia director, was ordered to pay a fine of 116,000 euros ($103,600) after being caught driving 75km/h in a 50km/h zone on his motorbike. All that said, I doubt the $103,000 had much effect on Anssi as say $1000 would have on me. I need want to spend that $1000 one day on food or housing. Anssi was making so much, my guess it's sole effect would be on how much his kids inherited.