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> In the extremely unlikely case that battery technology fails completely it would always be possible to use hydrogen as energy storage in combination with refi

by _hypx 3y ago

> In the extremely unlikely case that battery technology fails completely it would always be possible to use hydrogen as energy storage in combination with refitted gas peaker plants. But that scenario appears unlikely to me. That is not "extremely unlikely" it is 100%ly inevitable. Luckily hydrogen as energy storage is already happening now.

myrmidon 3y ago
How is battery tech failure inevitable? Batteries that buffer about a week of household electricity (100kwh) are already affordable enough to be installed in cars, and the whole sector is still improving rapidly.
- _hypx 3y ago
  You will inevitably need storage capacity of weeks or even months. Especially with regards to seasonal energy shifts (e.g. solar power generated in the summer but used for heating in the winter). There is no prospect of batteries pulling that off. You will need hydrogen for that. Batteries will ultimately just end up being for daily buffers of energy, and probably nothing beyond that once you realize the necessity of hydrogen.
  - myrmidon 3y ago
    This does not seem so obvious to me. Scenarios where we solve intermittency by improved grid connectivity and overprovisioning with only minimal storage seem quite plausible; transporting gigawatts of power over thousands of kilometers is a solved problem after all. (I think the main problem is purely political in that nations don't want to depend on others for energy, and outside of a few exceptions that would probably be necessary if storage was to be minimized).
    - _hypx 3y ago
      Grid connectivity is not magic. It will cost trillions to pull off and it still doesn't solve the problem of intermittency beyond daily fluctuations. Overprovisioning is just wasting energy. It also guarantees a free source of energy for whatever can utilizing it, which will also certainly be hydrogen production since it is effectively unlimited in its ability to scale up. The political problem is also not something you can dismiss. It will kill off most of the plans for global connectivity. And in fact this is a good thing as dependency on another country for energy is a bad idea (see Europe's dependency on Russia energy). So in the end, you really can't get away from hydrogen. It is simply too good of an idea and the alternatives are either impossible or totally unacceptable.

by _hypx 3y ago

myrmidon 3y ago

How is battery tech failure inevitable? Batteries that buffer about a week of household electricity (100kwh) are already affordable enough to be installed in cars, and the whole sector is still improving rapidly.

_hypx 3y ago
You will inevitably need storage capacity of weeks or even months. Especially with regards to seasonal energy shifts (e.g. solar power generated in the summer but used for heating in the winter). There is no prospect of batteries pulling that off. You will need hydrogen for that. Batteries will ultimately just end up being for daily buffers of energy, and probably nothing beyond that once you realize the necessity of hydrogen.
- myrmidon 3y ago
  This does not seem so obvious to me. Scenarios where we solve intermittency by improved grid connectivity and overprovisioning with only minimal storage seem quite plausible; transporting gigawatts of power over thousands of kilometers is a solved problem after all. (I think the main problem is purely political in that nations don't want to depend on others for energy, and outside of a few exceptions that would probably be necessary if storage was to be minimized).
  - _hypx 3y ago
    Grid connectivity is not magic. It will cost trillions to pull off and it still doesn't solve the problem of intermittency beyond daily fluctuations. Overprovisioning is just wasting energy. It also guarantees a free source of energy for whatever can utilizing it, which will also certainly be hydrogen production since it is effectively unlimited in its ability to scale up. The political problem is also not something you can dismiss. It will kill off most of the plans for global connectivity. And in fact this is a good thing as dependency on another country for energy is a bad idea (see Europe's dependency on Russia energy). So in the end, you really can't get away from hydrogen. It is simply too good of an idea and the alternatives are either impossible or totally unacceptable.