6 ms·

To be perfectly honest, if you're planning on making a few hundred thousand dollars a year, you probably should be happy to spend a few thousand on a lawyer to

To be perfectly honest, if you're planning on making a few hundred thousand dollars a year, you probably should be happy to spend a few thousand on a lawyer to help you with it, no matter how simple or where you are. The math just works out a lot better to spend the money upfront to prevent "gotcha" moments than to lose tons of money on the backend either to a loophole or over having to sue. This is a textbook case where an ounce of prevention is worth several pounds of cure. If you are signing or writing a contract worth 6 figures, get a lawyer/solicitor involved early. It's worth it.

8192kjshad09- 4y ago
True, but impractical. You're essentially saying every employee should have a lawyer look over their employment contract every time they get a new job? They _SHOULD_, but is it really practical to expect people to?
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  Everyone should spend 1-2% of their yearly salary on a lawyer whenever they sign an employment contract? The world is so fucked.
  - HarryHirsch 4y ago
    In the past, the employer's lawyer would negotiate with the union's lawyer, but we can't have nice things.
    - junofan 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - drewcoo 4y ago
        Downvoted because I'm tired of seeing anti-union propaganda on Hacker News. Can we stop yet? Please?
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      And you paid 3%/year for that union lawyer to write a contract that suits her friends (union insiders), probably at your expense. I'll pay the 1% once, thanks.
      - noobermin 4y ago
        You're literally just pulling numbers out of thin air here.
        SideQuark 4y ago
        It's not hard to check union dues avg a few percent of income per year. Over a 5 year job this is an order of magnitude more paid out of your salary than the once paid alternative listed here.
        HarryHirsch 4y ago
        The collective weight of the union as a counterweight to employer power and overreach is also wirth something. In a dispute with your employer, HR is never on your side, but the union is.
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        People need to stop going to HR with their problems, in general. A nice letter from whoever did your contract review works a lot better if you aren't at a union shop, and also isn't very expensive.
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        The 1% is from the comment I responded to (and is actually higher than my past experience - employment contracts are really easy to read). The 3% is from an average of union dues.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Do you want to spend 1% upfront or 100% later? As I said in another comment, employment contract review is often $300-1000, and lawyers will do it for free if they like you.
    - cortesoft 4y ago
      That’s not the calculation. It is, do you want pay 1% now or have a 0.5% chance of paying 100% later. Most people don’t have a lawyer look over their employment contract, and most people don’t get screwed over like this when they don’t. That is not a cut and dry situation. Honestly, some kind of insurance would probably be more cost effective.
      - singleshot_ 4y ago
        Most people do not have an employment contract. If you do, a lawyer should definitely review it.
- devmunchies 4y ago
  Even more impractical, this would imply that the legal team at the company would need to negotiate terms with every single new hire's lawyer. Would be very expensive.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Yes? It's pretty cheap if it's a standard contract. If you're friends with a lawyer they will do it for free. They will generally tell you where the pitfalls are, even when you can't negotiate your contract.
- dsign 4y ago
  There is something for that, it's called unions. Where I work, my employment contract had my name, my salary, where in the organization I was going to work and with what role, and a reference to a massive standard contract negotiated by a powerful union with all the companies in the country who would hire me for that role. That was it, two pages, it was basically a form. I did read the massive contract with the union that effectively set the terms of my employment, because, of course. But I knew it wouldn't be too bad, because, well, numbers. Tangential, there are some things that we humans can still do better than an AI, but it's not a given is going to remain like that forever. If things continue the way they go, people will still need food, shelter, healthcare and everything else, but economic organizations that provide those things may not need people. So, we should definitely be having a debate about the current social contract and how we will arrange the future to benefit us.
- onetoo 4y ago
  I am not from the US, but I always have a union lawyer look at my employment contracts before I sign them. It's part of my union's service. If you ask me, "expert legal team on retainer" is one of the primary reasons for being part of a union.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
devmunchies 4y ago
Yeah but for most roles you just aren't in a position to negotiate, even with a lawyer. Most software engineers, for example, are seen as fungible by large companies.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  In my experience, there is a lot you can negotiate if you need to, even with big tech. Small companies will accept redlined contracts if you need a small change, too. They complain about it because it's inconvenient to do, but it is very possible if you make it clear that it's what they have to do to hire you. This contract wasn't a simple employment contract, though. It was a copyright license. A lawyer was probably involved, and custom provisions were probably expected.

8192kjshad09- 4y ago

True, but impractical. You're essentially saying every employee should have a lawyer look over their employment contract every time they get a new job? They _SHOULD_, but is it really practical to expect people to?

bcrosby95 4y ago
Everyone should spend 1-2% of their yearly salary on a lawyer whenever they sign an employment contract? The world is so fucked.
- HarryHirsch 4y ago
  In the past, the employer's lawyer would negotiate with the union's lawyer, but we can't have nice things.
  - junofan 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - drewcoo 4y ago
      Downvoted because I'm tired of seeing anti-union propaganda on Hacker News. Can we stop yet? Please?
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    And you paid 3%/year for that union lawyer to write a contract that suits her friends (union insiders), probably at your expense. I'll pay the 1% once, thanks.
    - noobermin 4y ago
      You're literally just pulling numbers out of thin air here.
      - SideQuark 4y ago
        It's not hard to check union dues avg a few percent of income per year. Over a 5 year job this is an order of magnitude more paid out of your salary than the once paid alternative listed here.
        HarryHirsch 4y ago
        The collective weight of the union as a counterweight to employer power and overreach is also wirth something. In a dispute with your employer, HR is never on your side, but the union is.
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        People need to stop going to HR with their problems, in general. A nice letter from whoever did your contract review works a lot better if you aren't at a union shop, and also isn't very expensive.
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        The 1% is from the comment I responded to (and is actually higher than my past experience - employment contracts are really easy to read). The 3% is from an average of union dues.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Do you want to spend 1% upfront or 100% later? As I said in another comment, employment contract review is often $300-1000, and lawyers will do it for free if they like you.
  - cortesoft 4y ago
    That’s not the calculation. It is, do you want pay 1% now or have a 0.5% chance of paying 100% later. Most people don’t have a lawyer look over their employment contract, and most people don’t get screwed over like this when they don’t. That is not a cut and dry situation. Honestly, some kind of insurance would probably be more cost effective.
    - singleshot_ 4y ago
      Most people do not have an employment contract. If you do, a lawyer should definitely review it.
devmunchies 4y ago
Even more impractical, this would imply that the legal team at the company would need to negotiate terms with every single new hire's lawyer. Would be very expensive.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
Yes? It's pretty cheap if it's a standard contract. If you're friends with a lawyer they will do it for free. They will generally tell you where the pitfalls are, even when you can't negotiate your contract.
dsign 4y ago
There is something for that, it's called unions. Where I work, my employment contract had my name, my salary, where in the organization I was going to work and with what role, and a reference to a massive standard contract negotiated by a powerful union with all the companies in the country who would hire me for that role. That was it, two pages, it was basically a form. I did read the massive contract with the union that effectively set the terms of my employment, because, of course. But I knew it wouldn't be too bad, because, well, numbers. Tangential, there are some things that we humans can still do better than an AI, but it's not a given is going to remain like that forever. If things continue the way they go, people will still need food, shelter, healthcare and everything else, but economic organizations that provide those things may not need people. So, we should definitely be having a debate about the current social contract and how we will arrange the future to benefit us.
onetoo 4y ago
I am not from the US, but I always have a union lawyer look at my employment contracts before I sign them. It's part of my union's service. If you ask me, "expert legal team on retainer" is one of the primary reasons for being part of a union.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

devmunchies 4y ago

Yeah but for most roles you just aren't in a position to negotiate, even with a lawyer. Most software engineers, for example, are seen as fungible by large companies.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
In my experience, there is a lot you can negotiate if you need to, even with big tech. Small companies will accept redlined contracts if you need a small change, too. They complain about it because it's inconvenient to do, but it is very possible if you make it clear that it's what they have to do to hire you. This contract wasn't a simple employment contract, though. It was a copyright license. A lawyer was probably involved, and custom provisions were probably expected.