5 ms·

Is this bait and switch actually legal?

DANmode 4y ago
That doesn't matter. What matters is having enough money or power to hold someone responsible for wronging you, without it ruining your life.
- sircastor 4y ago
  I suspect even with attorneys you have another risk of alienating yourself among producers and studios. If you have a bad reputation (like having the audacity to demand pay for your work) you find yourself unhireable.
  - nullc 4y ago
    You take the hit for actually suing, but if you look like you can afford to sue and win, you'll find that parties are magically more reasonable when you flag something unjust. That's part of the double prejudice-- that if you're in the class that looks like it can get its way you get your way without the costs. If you're not and you scrape together the resources, you'll actually have to spend them and be thought of a trouble maker for it.
- internetter 4y ago
  Makes sense. We have laws & a justice system to protect workers, I suppose, but the workers just can't apply them in this hostile system. Man. This isn't news of course, but a nice reminder.
  - DANmode 4y ago
    I'm sorry, honestly...it sucks shit to write.
- gkoberger 4y ago
  Which is why unions exist. No individual could fight back against "Hollywood", but combined they're able to.
- adastra22 4y ago
  If they still wanted him to do work for the series after the switchover it would be slavery / indentured servitude. If they ever replayed the show on broadcast television I think he'd have a case for backpay.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  We need to get used to describing things as legal only when there is reasonable access to the legal system to achieve justice. The laws should be judged according to what the actual outcomes are, not what some written law says.
  - JBiserkov 4y ago
    "Single-digit millionaires have no effective access to the US legal system."
eviks 4y ago
The studio lawyers say this is perfectly legal, why do you ask?
quickthrower2 4y ago
IANAL. I imagine he could win if he sued, because "broadcast" should be understand as, well a cast, i.e. distribution, transmission (technology agnostic), that is broad, i.e. to many people. If he is not the only person this has happened to, then such people could form a group and sue together.
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  Broadcast, at least in some contexts means a radio or television transmission. Maybe it depends how old you are?
- mulderc 4y ago
  Yes you are not a lawyer. These type of terms were very common and it is likely the contract even defined broadcast as being broadcast over the airwaves. There was not much money in other forms of distribution at that time. Also , this was probably a dummy contract (as in, only a dummy would sign it) but that was also probably the only offer on the table and most writer don’t have much, if any, leverage in these negotiations. The creator and show runner of Babylon 5 has talked extensively about these issues over the years and has commented on how much of the cast and crew only see residuals from the show being run on broadcast TV. A huge part of the previous writer strike was over these issues.
  - shagie 4y ago
    Some of that bit from JMS on B5 can be found at http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html regarding residuals, contracts, and Claudia Christian's departure from the show.
wmf 4y ago
It probably was. I rarely defend unions but this is a case where a standard contract could help. If you do the work you should get paid.
CameronNemo 4y ago
The PATRIOT Act. Read it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Wdo4J7uy0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Wdo4J7uy0
themodelplumber 4y ago
I almost had something similar happen to me with music production & licensing (I was contracted to help build out an e-store library of sweet tunes and FX for Flash websites and interactive CD-ROMs, lol). It's a matter of perceived power and often some perceived norms as well. Fortunately somebody in my family had previously warned me about...was it Winston Groom? Anyway, I read the contract and got suspicious, and saw money being redirected in all kinds of sneaky ways before it would finally trickle in the direction of the actual creator, me! I called an attorney. The attorney was super upset about it after some review, so I ended up pushing back in the negotiations with what amounted to way too much effort. The attorney was new, but at least they were on my side... The contract was then handed off to someone with more time on their hands to negotiate with me. This person happened to be irritated by sneaky moves in general (lucky me) so he drafted a brief, completely new letter contract on the spot, right there with both of us in the office, and I signed it immediately. At the time this creative effort was meant to pay my rent, and to think I almost did a bunch of work for no reasonable recompense and therefore almost couldn't make rent despite hours and days and weeks spent on the project made me really angry. I still really feel for people who end up in that same kind of situation. If you are a creator you should at the very least know your industry groups. Whether you become an official member or not. Working in music and 3D animation more regularly a bit later on in my early career, I was surprised to find the Graphics Artist Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidelines handbook extremely helpful. It had a lot to say about contracts as well, IIRC, and the organization also put on helpful webinars on contracts even in the early 2000s. Few things felt quite as helpful around this topic as having someone who had negotiated hundreds of contracts with the Disney Corps of the world saying to you, "you are right to ask about that, and here are some ways to negotiate those terms" or just "that's a ridiculous thing to see in a contract, strike it out and give them my number if they complain".
- internetter 4y ago
  I'm hearing mixed thoughts on the general legality. Of course, even if it's illegal there's the practicalities of workers rarely being able to stand up for themselves, I guess outside of a union. > I still really feel for people who end up in that same kind of situation. But regardless, I think our systems have failed if such a contract can exist legally, or without repercussions (because you aren't breaking the law if you don't get caught)
oh_sigh 4y ago
No, because the way he explains it, there is no consideration in the contract. "You give us something, and we give you nothing" is not a a valid contract. I bet there is something more to it than what he posted. Like, he got paid a certain wage, and would have received a bonus if the show was picked up by a major broadcaster.

That doesn't matter. What matters is having enough money or power to hold someone responsible for wronging you, without it ruining your life.

sircastor 4y ago
I suspect even with attorneys you have another risk of alienating yourself among producers and studios. If you have a bad reputation (like having the audacity to demand pay for your work) you find yourself unhireable.
- nullc 4y ago
  You take the hit for actually suing, but if you look like you can afford to sue and win, you'll find that parties are magically more reasonable when you flag something unjust. That's part of the double prejudice-- that if you're in the class that looks like it can get its way you get your way without the costs. If you're not and you scrape together the resources, you'll actually have to spend them and be thought of a trouble maker for it.
internetter 4y ago
Makes sense. We have laws & a justice system to protect workers, I suppose, but the workers just can't apply them in this hostile system. Man. This isn't news of course, but a nice reminder.
- DANmode 4y ago
  I'm sorry, honestly...it sucks shit to write.
gkoberger 4y ago
Which is why unions exist. No individual could fight back against "Hollywood", but combined they're able to.
adastra22 4y ago
If they still wanted him to do work for the series after the switchover it would be slavery / indentured servitude. If they ever replayed the show on broadcast television I think he'd have a case for backpay.
tshaddox 4y ago
We need to get used to describing things as legal only when there is reasonable access to the legal system to achieve justice. The laws should be judged according to what the actual outcomes are, not what some written law says.
- JBiserkov 4y ago
  "Single-digit millionaires have no effective access to the US legal system."

eviks 4y ago

The studio lawyers say this is perfectly legal, why do you ask?

quickthrower2 4y ago

IANAL. I imagine he could win if he sued, because "broadcast" should be understand as, well a cast, i.e. distribution, transmission (technology agnostic), that is broad, i.e. to many people. If he is not the only person this has happened to, then such people could form a group and sue together.

WillPostForFood 4y ago
Broadcast, at least in some contexts means a radio or television transmission. Maybe it depends how old you are?
mulderc 4y ago
Yes you are not a lawyer. These type of terms were very common and it is likely the contract even defined broadcast as being broadcast over the airwaves. There was not much money in other forms of distribution at that time. Also , this was probably a dummy contract (as in, only a dummy would sign it) but that was also probably the only offer on the table and most writer don’t have much, if any, leverage in these negotiations. The creator and show runner of Babylon 5 has talked extensively about these issues over the years and has commented on how much of the cast and crew only see residuals from the show being run on broadcast TV. A huge part of the previous writer strike was over these issues.
- shagie 4y ago
  Some of that bit from JMS on B5 can be found at http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html regarding residuals, contracts, and Claudia Christian's departure from the show.

wmf 4y ago

It probably was. I rarely defend unions but this is a case where a standard contract could help. If you do the work you should get paid.

CameronNemo 4y ago

The PATRIOT Act. Read it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Wdo4J7uy0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Wdo4J7uy0

themodelplumber 4y ago

I almost had something similar happen to me with music production & licensing (I was contracted to help build out an e-store library of sweet tunes and FX for Flash websites and interactive CD-ROMs, lol). It's a matter of perceived power and often some perceived norms as well. Fortunately somebody in my family had previously warned me about...was it Winston Groom? Anyway, I read the contract and got suspicious, and saw money being redirected in all kinds of sneaky ways before it would finally trickle in the direction of the actual creator, me! I called an attorney. The attorney was super upset about it after some review, so I ended up pushing back in the negotiations with what amounted to way too much effort. The attorney was new, but at least they were on my side... The contract was then handed off to someone with more time on their hands to negotiate with me. This person happened to be irritated by sneaky moves in general (lucky me) so he drafted a brief, completely new letter contract on the spot, right there with both of us in the office, and I signed it immediately. At the time this creative effort was meant to pay my rent, and to think I almost did a bunch of work for no reasonable recompense and therefore almost couldn't make rent despite hours and days and weeks spent on the project made me really angry. I still really feel for people who end up in that same kind of situation. If you are a creator you should at the very least know your industry groups. Whether you become an official member or not. Working in music and 3D animation more regularly a bit later on in my early career, I was surprised to find the Graphics Artist Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidelines handbook extremely helpful. It had a lot to say about contracts as well, IIRC, and the organization also put on helpful webinars on contracts even in the early 2000s. Few things felt quite as helpful around this topic as having someone who had negotiated hundreds of contracts with the Disney Corps of the world saying to you, "you are right to ask about that, and here are some ways to negotiate those terms" or just "that's a ridiculous thing to see in a contract, strike it out and give them my number if they complain".

internetter 4y ago
I'm hearing mixed thoughts on the general legality. Of course, even if it's illegal there's the practicalities of workers rarely being able to stand up for themselves, I guess outside of a union. > I still really feel for people who end up in that same kind of situation. But regardless, I think our systems have failed if such a contract can exist legally, or without repercussions (because you aren't breaking the law if you don't get caught)

oh_sigh 4y ago

No, because the way he explains it, there is no consideration in the contract. "You give us something, and we give you nothing" is not a a valid contract. I bet there is something more to it than what he posted. Like, he got paid a certain wage, and would have received a bonus if the show was picked up by a major broadcaster.