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Their own website renders the Angular "template" as a string with no syntax highlighting. The framework is extremely overengineered requiring multiple files fo

by warent 3y ago

Their own website renders the Angular "template" as a string with no syntax highlighting. The framework is extremely overengineered requiring multiple files for "hello world" It introduces a lot of unnecessary complexity for projects of any size It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses Sadly It's just not a good framework

stickfigure 3y ago
I wrote this on Quora 8 years ago, and it's still true: https://qr.ae/pypHJw https://qr.ae/pypHJw It's my answer to what I can tell you agree is the most important question in software engineering - "What programming language has the shortest 'Hello World' program?"
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  We're talking about a framework here, not a programming language. I don't think the above poster's assessment about the amount of files needed for hello world offers a charitable conclusion either, given frameworks are not languages. The same file usage would apply to many other popular 'heavy' opinionated frameworks.
  - stickfigure 3y ago
    My point is, nobody writes Hello World webapps for a living. The number of lines or files is irrelevant. There is precisely zero value in this metric.
    - operatingthetan 3y ago
      Sorry, I misread your comment.
    - baq 3y ago
      There’s a grain of truth in that thought. First impressions matter, frameworks aren’t exempt from that basic psychological fact. If you treat ’complexity of hello world’ as a proxy for learning curve steepness (again, people do things like that subconsciously), you may end with a very wrong assessment very early. It’ll probably tell more about the assessor than the framework but it’s a real risk.
      - dwaite 3y ago
        Indeed - if my goal is a minimal Hello, World, I don't even need javascript, I can put "Hello World" in a text file and name it index.html. Problem is, this doesn't lead me to solve any harder problems.
operatingthetan 3y ago
>Their own website renders the Angular "template" as a string with no syntax highlighting. That's not even a criticism of the framework.
kumarvvr 3y ago
> The framework is extremely overengineered requiring multiple files for "hello world" Is that a valid criticism? Angular is for writing medium to heavy complexity applications. Sure, if you want to write hello world programs in it, then it is going to be complex. This is a generic comment thrown about for all large frameworks. > It introduces a lot of unnecessary complexity for projects of any size This I agree. > It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses True, but so does React and other frameworks. To me, it seems like this is a limitation of HTML rather than a transgression of Angular. > Sadly It's just not a good framework It is a good choice for a large organization, with team members changing and all sorts of other goodness.
paulddraper 3y ago
Sadly, those statements are objectively false. > requiring multiple files for "hello world" False (unless you're counting angular.json conf file for Angular CLI??) > It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses And what, JSX is valid HTML???? FWIW Angular templates is completely valid HTML. (The only non-standard thing is that the attributes are case-sensitive.)
- snemvalts 3y ago
  JSX can be syntax highlighted and linted easier. What if a variable that is being referenced is missing at that time in the component's lifecycle? JSX makes so much more sense, making code the parent of the template, instead of keeping code and template as siblings.
  - cout 3y ago
    This has been a debate since long before React or Angular existed. Keeping code and templates together typically makes sense to programmers while keeping the template as html in a separate file means you can edit it in any html editor, no special tools needed. I've always been partial to keeping them together, but working with designers who prefer it the other way, I can at least respect where they are coming from.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    I mildly agree. I note that Vue and Svelte have the same issue, and yet I rarely hear this criticism of them.
tonis2 3y ago
Lots of web developers love complexity, it makes the work you do seem more important.
uasi 3y ago
> It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses Brackets and parens are valid in attribute names. Section 13.1.2.3 of the HTML standard[0] states: > Attribute names must consist of one or more characters other than controls, U+0020 SPACE, U+0022 ("), U+0027 ('), U+003E (>), U+002F (/), U+003D (=), and noncharacters. [0] https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#attributes-2 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#attributes-2

by warent 3y ago

stickfigure 3y ago

I wrote this on Quora 8 years ago, and it's still true: https://qr.ae/pypHJw https://qr.ae/pypHJw It's my answer to what I can tell you agree is the most important question in software engineering - "What programming language has the shortest 'Hello World' program?"

operatingthetan 3y ago
We're talking about a framework here, not a programming language. I don't think the above poster's assessment about the amount of files needed for hello world offers a charitable conclusion either, given frameworks are not languages. The same file usage would apply to many other popular 'heavy' opinionated frameworks.
- stickfigure 3y ago
  My point is, nobody writes Hello World webapps for a living. The number of lines or files is irrelevant. There is precisely zero value in this metric.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    Sorry, I misread your comment.
  - baq 3y ago
    There’s a grain of truth in that thought. First impressions matter, frameworks aren’t exempt from that basic psychological fact. If you treat ’complexity of hello world’ as a proxy for learning curve steepness (again, people do things like that subconsciously), you may end with a very wrong assessment very early. It’ll probably tell more about the assessor than the framework but it’s a real risk.
    - dwaite 3y ago
      Indeed - if my goal is a minimal Hello, World, I don't even need javascript, I can put "Hello World" in a text file and name it index.html. Problem is, this doesn't lead me to solve any harder problems.

operatingthetan 3y ago

>Their own website renders the Angular "template" as a string with no syntax highlighting. That's not even a criticism of the framework.

kumarvvr 3y ago

> The framework is extremely overengineered requiring multiple files for "hello world" Is that a valid criticism? Angular is for writing medium to heavy complexity applications. Sure, if you want to write hello world programs in it, then it is going to be complex. This is a generic comment thrown about for all large frameworks. > It introduces a lot of unnecessary complexity for projects of any size This I agree. > It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses True, but so does React and other frameworks. To me, it seems like this is a limitation of HTML rather than a transgression of Angular. > Sadly It's just not a good framework It is a good choice for a large organization, with team members changing and all sorts of other goodness.

paulddraper 3y ago

Sadly, those statements are objectively false. > requiring multiple files for "hello world" False (unless you're counting angular.json conf file for Angular CLI??) > It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses And what, JSX is valid HTML???? FWIW Angular templates is completely valid HTML. (The only non-standard thing is that the attributes are case-sensitive.)

snemvalts 3y ago
JSX can be syntax highlighted and linted easier. What if a variable that is being referenced is missing at that time in the component's lifecycle? JSX makes so much more sense, making code the parent of the template, instead of keeping code and template as siblings.
- cout 3y ago
  This has been a debate since long before React or Angular existed. Keeping code and templates together typically makes sense to programmers while keeping the template as html in a separate file means you can edit it in any html editor, no special tools needed. I've always been partial to keeping them together, but working with designers who prefer it the other way, I can at least respect where they are coming from.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  I mildly agree. I note that Vue and Svelte have the same issue, and yet I rarely hear this criticism of them.

tonis2 3y ago

Lots of web developers love complexity, it makes the work you do seem more important.

uasi 3y ago

> It uses invalid HTML, with attribute syntax including brackets and parentheses Brackets and parens are valid in attribute names. Section 13.1.2.3 of the HTML standard[0] states: > Attribute names must consist of one or more characters other than controls, U+0020 SPACE, U+0022 ("), U+0027 ('), U+003E (>), U+002F (/), U+003D (=), and noncharacters. [0] https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#attributes-2 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#attributes-2