5 ms·

What I dont understand is why more time/effort/study is not spent on harnessing the placebo effect and turn it into something willfully usable.

hombre_fatal 3y ago
Look no further than the multi billion dollar health supplements market for placebos that don’t do anything But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions. But that's literally what marketing does, not just for supplements, but in general. The limits of what can be achieved through lies and persuasion are well-mapped now. There is a tension between what marketers would like to do, and what the law allows them to, but it's a tension over marginal effectiveness - the illegal methods are only slightly more effective than the legal ones. There are no psy-corps placebo mind control superpowers, known or hypothesized - if there were, then regulations around advertising and fair competition would look more like regulations around access to enriched fissile material or highly infectious pathogens.
boomboomsubban 3y ago
Because giving effective treatment is always going to be better. That way the patient gets the placebo effect plus the treatment's effect. And there has been research into what provides a stronger placebo effect. Getting a shot gives more of a placebo effect than a pill for example.
- taeric 3y ago
  I do think it is a fair question, though? Why are some things only effective if we believe them to be so? And what does that imply about messaging? I'm not in favor of lies. But mayhap shutting up is more called for? :)
  - Geee 3y ago
    There are some weird quantum effects which allows your mind to "steer" the future into the direction you want. You can choose from a set/distribution of possible futures.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      Do you have any evidence towards this? It sounds like your usual "spiritual quantum humbug", but maybe you have some rigorous scientific evidence?
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    >Why are some things only effective if we believe them to be so? Our mind controls our body, which has strong healing capabilities. >I'm not in favor of lies. But mayhap shutting up is more called for? :) I don't get what you're saying here.
    - taeric 3y ago
      Telling people something won't work could cause it to not work. Which is terrifying. Edit: I am slow to realize it may have sounded like "shut up" was directed at you. My apologies. I meant that more for the generic voice of caution that is as often very valuable. And i am very nervous on what it implies for general health reporting. How many more people are sick because they think they should be? What can you even do with that idea?
      - boomboomsubban 3y ago
        I didn't think you were telling me to shut up, I couldn't tell what you were saying. >And i am very nervous on what it implies for general health reporting. Remember that it works both ways. For everybody that gets a fake flu, there's somebody who is healthier because they ate their spinach.
        taeric 3y ago
pedalpete 3y ago
This is why placebos are controlled for in experiments. It isn't just to throw them away, but it is to measure the difference of efficacy vs placebo. The progressive take is placebo should be considered valuable information and not ignored.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
Skimming Wikipedia, it seems that effort was spent, and what it revealed is that "placebo effect" is mostly bunk - any discernible effects exist only patient's perception of symptoms and things influenced by it (e.g. patient calming down); any change in objective measurements seem to be better explained by plain regression to the mean (e.g. patient just getting better on their own). As for exploiting the perceptual aspects for good and bad, well, that's a really really well-explored ground - we've been at it for thousands of years. Religion, folk medicine, homeopathy, or the modern bullshit fads like fitness, healthy food, spiritual exercise philosophies, etc. - they all build up huge emotional frameworks around core interventions that, by themselves, have slight to no effect. They are big money printers, tho.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Excuse me but how is fitness a bullshit fad that has “slight to no effect?”
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    It's this huge amalgamation of marketing and junk pseudo-science, a quasi-religion that gets people involved emotionally to the point of defining their own identity in terms of their diets and exercise activities. It surrounds a small kernel of good ideas about health and nutrition, but it leads people to it in a round-about fashion, extracting money on the way.

hombre_fatal 3y ago

Look no further than the multi billion dollar health supplements market for placebos that don’t do anything But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
> But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions. But that's literally what marketing does, not just for supplements, but in general. The limits of what can be achieved through lies and persuasion are well-mapped now. There is a tension between what marketers would like to do, and what the law allows them to, but it's a tension over marginal effectiveness - the illegal methods are only slightly more effective than the legal ones. There are no psy-corps placebo mind control superpowers, known or hypothesized - if there were, then regulations around advertising and fair competition would look more like regulations around access to enriched fissile material or highly infectious pathogens.

boomboomsubban 3y ago

Because giving effective treatment is always going to be better. That way the patient gets the placebo effect plus the treatment's effect. And there has been research into what provides a stronger placebo effect. Getting a shot gives more of a placebo effect than a pill for example.

taeric 3y ago
I do think it is a fair question, though? Why are some things only effective if we believe them to be so? And what does that imply about messaging? I'm not in favor of lies. But mayhap shutting up is more called for? :)
- Geee 3y ago
  There are some weird quantum effects which allows your mind to "steer" the future into the direction you want. You can choose from a set/distribution of possible futures.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    Do you have any evidence towards this? It sounds like your usual "spiritual quantum humbug", but maybe you have some rigorous scientific evidence?
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  >Why are some things only effective if we believe them to be so? Our mind controls our body, which has strong healing capabilities. >I'm not in favor of lies. But mayhap shutting up is more called for? :) I don't get what you're saying here.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Telling people something won't work could cause it to not work. Which is terrifying. Edit: I am slow to realize it may have sounded like "shut up" was directed at you. My apologies. I meant that more for the generic voice of caution that is as often very valuable. And i am very nervous on what it implies for general health reporting. How many more people are sick because they think they should be? What can you even do with that idea?
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      I didn't think you were telling me to shut up, I couldn't tell what you were saying. >And i am very nervous on what it implies for general health reporting. Remember that it works both ways. For everybody that gets a fake flu, there's somebody who is healthier because they ate their spinach.
      - taeric 3y ago

pedalpete 3y ago

This is why placebos are controlled for in experiments. It isn't just to throw them away, but it is to measure the difference of efficacy vs placebo. The progressive take is placebo should be considered valuable information and not ignored.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

Skimming Wikipedia, it seems that effort was spent, and what it revealed is that "placebo effect" is mostly bunk - any discernible effects exist only patient's perception of symptoms and things influenced by it (e.g. patient calming down); any change in objective measurements seem to be better explained by plain regression to the mean (e.g. patient just getting better on their own). As for exploiting the perceptual aspects for good and bad, well, that's a really really well-explored ground - we've been at it for thousands of years. Religion, folk medicine, homeopathy, or the modern bullshit fads like fitness, healthy food, spiritual exercise philosophies, etc. - they all build up huge emotional frameworks around core interventions that, by themselves, have slight to no effect. They are big money printers, tho.

edgyquant 3y ago
Excuse me but how is fitness a bullshit fad that has “slight to no effect?”
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  It's this huge amalgamation of marketing and junk pseudo-science, a quasi-religion that gets people involved emotionally to the point of defining their own identity in terms of their diets and exercise activities. It surrounds a small kernel of good ideas about health and nutrition, but it leads people to it in a round-about fashion, extracting money on the way.