4 ms·

The placebo effect is really powerful. When you see a study like this, one of your first questions should be "how can I tell whether or not this is just placebo

by dgacmu 3y ago

The placebo effect is really powerful. When you see a study like this, one of your first questions should be "how can I tell whether or not this is just placebo?"

taeric 3y ago
Sorta. If you are worried about placebo/nocebo, than I see obvious paths where you wind up in with your incentives being to lie to people. Either about the possible ill effects, or about enthusiasm that they will work. Yes, we have evidence that this influences things. That is usually why people replicate without telling people why they were doing something. In this study, they didn't say "we are testing you with masks to see if they make you test better." It was more, we are testing you with and without masks to see if we spot differences. I could easily envision some folks expecting the result to go the other way. More, if that is the concern, you need to test doing that. Don't make it blind, reverse the message. Tell them you expect them to be less alert wearing a mask, and see if that holds. Right?
- dgacmu 3y ago
  Could work. I don't know enough about the specifics of experiment design for sleep research. You could also try things like transparent masks + lies ("they filter specific wavelengths"), etc. Studying people is awfully hard. Lying is generally allowed as long as you do the right things as far as advance ethics review and design (and usually informing the person later, etc.).
  - taeric 3y ago
    To be fair, the problem you are bringing up is larger than just sleep research. https://examine.com/summaries/study/0AKk3d/ https://examine.com/summaries/study/0AKk3d/ is an interesting study that was looking at what is often thought of as a much more active drug. My question is ultimately on whether that is a flaw in this study, or more to study? :D I'm probably placing too much weight on the word "flaw?"
- jackmott42 3y ago
  Studying people is so complicated with so many weird results you really just need to make it double blind, you won't be able to reason your way out of it reliably.
abetteramerica 3y ago
What I dont understand is why more time/effort/study is not spent on harnessing the placebo effect and turn it into something willfully usable.
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  Look no further than the multi billion dollar health supplements market for placebos that don’t do anything But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions. But that's literally what marketing does, not just for supplements, but in general. The limits of what can be achieved through lies and persuasion are well-mapped now. There is a tension between what marketers would like to do, and what the law allows them to, but it's a tension over marginal effectiveness - the illegal methods are only slightly more effective than the legal ones. There are no psy-corps placebo mind control superpowers, known or hypothesized - if there were, then regulations around advertising and fair competition would look more like regulations around access to enriched fissile material or highly infectious pathogens.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  Because giving effective treatment is always going to be better. That way the patient gets the placebo effect plus the treatment's effect. And there has been research into what provides a stronger placebo effect. Getting a shot gives more of a placebo effect than a pill for example.
  - taeric 3y ago
    I do think it is a fair question, though? Why are some things only effective if we believe them to be so? And what does that imply about messaging? I'm not in favor of lies. But mayhap shutting up is more called for? :)

by dgacmu 3y ago

The placebo effect is really powerful. When you see a study like this, one of your first questions should be "how can I tell whether or not this is just placebo?"

taeric 3y ago

Sorta. If you are worried about placebo/nocebo, than I see obvious paths where you wind up in with your incentives being to lie to people. Either about the possible ill effects, or about enthusiasm that they will work. Yes, we have evidence that this influences things. That is usually why people replicate without telling people why they were doing something. In this study, they didn't say "we are testing you with masks to see if they make you test better." It was more, we are testing you with and without masks to see if we spot differences. I could easily envision some folks expecting the result to go the other way. More, if that is the concern, you need to test doing that. Don't make it blind, reverse the message. Tell them you expect them to be less alert wearing a mask, and see if that holds. Right?

dgacmu 3y ago
Could work. I don't know enough about the specifics of experiment design for sleep research. You could also try things like transparent masks + lies ("they filter specific wavelengths"), etc. Studying people is awfully hard. Lying is generally allowed as long as you do the right things as far as advance ethics review and design (and usually informing the person later, etc.).
- taeric 3y ago
  To be fair, the problem you are bringing up is larger than just sleep research. https://examine.com/summaries/study/0AKk3d/ https://examine.com/summaries/study/0AKk3d/ is an interesting study that was looking at what is often thought of as a much more active drug. My question is ultimately on whether that is a flaw in this study, or more to study? :D I'm probably placing too much weight on the word "flaw?"
jackmott42 3y ago
Studying people is so complicated with so many weird results you really just need to make it double blind, you won't be able to reason your way out of it reliably.

abetteramerica 3y ago

What I dont understand is why more time/effort/study is not spent on harnessing the placebo effect and turn it into something willfully usable.

hombre_fatal 3y ago
Look no further than the multi billion dollar health supplements market for placebos that don’t do anything But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > But seriously the only ways off the top of my head to mobilize placebos is to lie to people which doesn’t seem worth the squeeze. They just lead to more misconceptions. But that's literally what marketing does, not just for supplements, but in general. The limits of what can be achieved through lies and persuasion are well-mapped now. There is a tension between what marketers would like to do, and what the law allows them to, but it's a tension over marginal effectiveness - the illegal methods are only slightly more effective than the legal ones. There are no psy-corps placebo mind control superpowers, known or hypothesized - if there were, then regulations around advertising and fair competition would look more like regulations around access to enriched fissile material or highly infectious pathogens.
boomboomsubban 3y ago
Because giving effective treatment is always going to be better. That way the patient gets the placebo effect plus the treatment's effect. And there has been research into what provides a stronger placebo effect. Getting a shot gives more of a placebo effect than a pill for example.
- taeric 3y ago
  I do think it is a fair question, though? Why are some things only effective if we believe them to be so? And what does that imply about messaging? I'm not in favor of lies. But mayhap shutting up is more called for? :)