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You do know billions of doses of COVID vaccines were delivered and the side effects were overwhelmingly insignificant, right? Skepticism is good, but in the fac

You do know billions of doses of COVID vaccines were delivered and the side effects were overwhelmingly insignificant, right? Skepticism is good, but in the face of data we should be willing to pivot. The COVID vaccines are probably the single most studied and tested vaccine - heck, medical product - of all time. It's like the aspartame or MSG of the medical world. No matter how much data you provide people will never get over the idea that it must somehow be dangerous.

breck 4y ago
I should have used a more precise term than "uncapped". The comment I was responding to used the term "once". I was saying that in most recent vaccine history, the term "twice" was used, then "three times", then "four times", then "up to date". Uncapped was a gross exaggeration. I should instead said that there "once" could not be taken seriously and the range should be "1 to a handful of times", which is a significant factor increase of at least 2x. But anyway, in my dataset of about 1,000 acquaintances, the only one under 50 hospitalized related to Covid was a friend who was a 38 year mother of 2, in top shape, who had a heart attack within a month after her second dose, and to this day is still recovering. I do not think these vaccines are that dangerous—I would say they probably cause as much harm as one night of heavy binge drinking—but I saw zero evidence of any benefit, and yes I saw one very bad case of severe life threatening side effect.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  > But anyway, in my dataset of about 1,000 acquaintances, the only one under 50 hospitalized related to Covid was a friend who was a 38 year mother of 2, in top shape, who had a heart attack within a month after her second dose, and to this day is still recovering. There's a reason we don't use anecdotes as a substitute for medical research. Not least because they're subject to the post hoc fallacy. Just because one event follows another doesn't mean there's a causal relationship. There's every chance that mother of 2 was going to have a heart attack anyways. It happens. The fact they had a vaccine first likely isn't relevant, clinically speaking. If you give a few billion people vaccines, you will find literally every effect that follows. Car crashes. Broken arms. Death by mauling. Syphilis. Turbo-cancer of the elbow. In that age group, a boundary group, your risk of having a heart attack are somewhere between 17 and 97 per 100,000. [1] The risk of a heart issue from the vaccine is about two orders of magnitude lower than that. > I do not think these vaccines are that dangerous—I would say they probably cause as much harm as one night of heavy binge drinking— ... You have no basis to arrive at that conclusion. > ... but I saw zero evidence of any benefit ... It's in the data. > ... and yes I saw one very bad case of severe life threatening side effect. You saw one anecdotal report of a bad thing that happened to someone after they took a COVID vaccine, without any evidence they were connected. I'm sure more than once someone took a tylenol and got hit by a bus. That doesn't mean taking tylenol causes getting hit by a bus. > The proportions of participants who reported at least 1 serious adverse event were 0.6% in the vaccine group and 0.5% in the placebo group. [2] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32111640/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32111640/ [2] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer...
  - loeg 4y ago
    > If you give a few billion people vaccines, you will find literally every effect that follows. Car crashes. Broken arms. Death by mauling. Syphilis. Turbo-cancer of the elbow. Yeah. Lightning-induced arrhythmia was (amusingly) a registered side effect (Serious Adverse Event) of Moderna's covid vaccine. https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/18/covid-vaccine-volunteer-struck-by-lightning-after-moderna-injection-13774498/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/18/covid-vaccine-volunteer-struc...
Eumenes 4y ago
You could say the same thing about infections
- arcticbull 4y ago
  You're going to have to explain because I can't see how you could.
  - Eumenes 4y ago
    Virus is weak and has super low mortality rate (esp. if you take care of yourself and are not old or fat). Vaccine is new and w/o years of data behind it. I pick no vaccine.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Well you pick wrong. But that's fine I guess, at this point it's personal responsibility and if you want to make a stupid decision, go with god. The virus has a fairly low mortality rate for healthy people, most people aren't healthy. The fact the vaccine is new is irrelevant because generally speaking you can substitute time with quantity. Most effects are normally distributed in time, and so if you have enough doses given, you can replace the fact it hasn't been around too long with a high number of administrations when making a safety assessment. And it's been given literally billions of times. We've seen the full gamut of consequences. But anyways, 'long-term side effects' don't refer to latent effects. It's not things that magically appear 10 years later. They're effects that last a long time but usually onset almost immediately. There's no reason to think that 5 years of data is better than 3 years of data when administered billions of times. And frankly if you think 3 years and billions of data points are insufficient nothing's going to change your mind. So you may as well stop pretending it's a data issue. As I said, irrationality is your prerogative. But you are wrong.
      - Eumenes 4y ago
        Yeah I'm speaking for myself, and I'm very healthy and fit. If I were not, I'd probably be on other prescription drugs, so what's one more thing? I don't think I've taken an OTC or prescription drug in 10-15 years. My medicine cabinet is empty. I've smoked some weed though. Agreed on the personal responsibility piece. The long-term side effects piece is still undecided and that's undebatable, simply because not enough time has gone by. Maybe I'll be open to changing my mind in 5-10 years. Even then, I'd win, no?
6nf 4y ago
I know people that died from the covid vaccine including a 17 year old healthy kid of a friend. A girl that had zero risk of dying from covid.
- elif 4y ago
  Why is your annecdote not present in VAERS? Also the cumulative COVID-19 mortality rate in the 15-24 year age group was 0.03% The mortality rate of covid for your undocumented friend is higher than the target group mortality of RSV.
  - t0bia_s 4y ago
    It is not. Those 0.03% was not healthy individuals and covid was probably not main cause of detah. In case of medical intervention like vaccination, it is different story. I also know dead persons after covid vaccination, serious injuries also in family. How many healthly people dead from covid do you know?
    - elif 4y ago
      No, those are deaths where a doctor has decided it was the cause, regardless of nonwitnessing internet commenters belief about their standards of judgement. There were 3 deaths on my block, including a renowned weight lifter who was a daily staple at the gym.
      - t0bia_s 4y ago
        Did you know them personaly? Did you know their medical records?
        arcticbull 4y ago
        Even if I chose to accept your unfounded, not-reported-in-VAERS position as fact, it doesn't change anything. Anecdotes aren't substitutes for medical research. The data is clear that the risk of vaccination is extremely small, and that there are aggregate benefits to vaccination that exceed the risks. Deaths and harm occur in some limited cases in vaccination. They occur in some limited cases without. That's why we have data. One person being harmed cannot stop a program that reduces harm in aggregate. I guarantee you the riskiest thing that child did on a regular basis was get into a car. There's a 1% lifetime risk of death in a car accident in America.

breck 4y ago

I should have used a more precise term than "uncapped". The comment I was responding to used the term "once". I was saying that in most recent vaccine history, the term "twice" was used, then "three times", then "four times", then "up to date". Uncapped was a gross exaggeration. I should instead said that there "once" could not be taken seriously and the range should be "1 to a handful of times", which is a significant factor increase of at least 2x. But anyway, in my dataset of about 1,000 acquaintances, the only one under 50 hospitalized related to Covid was a friend who was a 38 year mother of 2, in top shape, who had a heart attack within a month after her second dose, and to this day is still recovering. I do not think these vaccines are that dangerous—I would say they probably cause as much harm as one night of heavy binge drinking—but I saw zero evidence of any benefit, and yes I saw one very bad case of severe life threatening side effect.

arcticbull 4y ago
> But anyway, in my dataset of about 1,000 acquaintances, the only one under 50 hospitalized related to Covid was a friend who was a 38 year mother of 2, in top shape, who had a heart attack within a month after her second dose, and to this day is still recovering. There's a reason we don't use anecdotes as a substitute for medical research. Not least because they're subject to the post hoc fallacy. Just because one event follows another doesn't mean there's a causal relationship. There's every chance that mother of 2 was going to have a heart attack anyways. It happens. The fact they had a vaccine first likely isn't relevant, clinically speaking. If you give a few billion people vaccines, you will find literally every effect that follows. Car crashes. Broken arms. Death by mauling. Syphilis. Turbo-cancer of the elbow. In that age group, a boundary group, your risk of having a heart attack are somewhere between 17 and 97 per 100,000. [1] The risk of a heart issue from the vaccine is about two orders of magnitude lower than that. > I do not think these vaccines are that dangerous—I would say they probably cause as much harm as one night of heavy binge drinking— ... You have no basis to arrive at that conclusion. > ... but I saw zero evidence of any benefit ... It's in the data. > ... and yes I saw one very bad case of severe life threatening side effect. You saw one anecdotal report of a bad thing that happened to someone after they took a COVID vaccine, without any evidence they were connected. I'm sure more than once someone took a tylenol and got hit by a bus. That doesn't mean taking tylenol causes getting hit by a bus. > The proportions of participants who reported at least 1 serious adverse event were 0.6% in the vaccine group and 0.5% in the placebo group. [2] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32111640/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32111640/ [2] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html#18-serious-adverse-events https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer...
- loeg 4y ago
  > If you give a few billion people vaccines, you will find literally every effect that follows. Car crashes. Broken arms. Death by mauling. Syphilis. Turbo-cancer of the elbow. Yeah. Lightning-induced arrhythmia was (amusingly) a registered side effect (Serious Adverse Event) of Moderna's covid vaccine. https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/18/covid-vaccine-volunteer-struck-by-lightning-after-moderna-injection-13774498/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/18/covid-vaccine-volunteer-struc...

Eumenes 4y ago

You could say the same thing about infections

arcticbull 4y ago
You're going to have to explain because I can't see how you could.
- Eumenes 4y ago
  Virus is weak and has super low mortality rate (esp. if you take care of yourself and are not old or fat). Vaccine is new and w/o years of data behind it. I pick no vaccine.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Well you pick wrong. But that's fine I guess, at this point it's personal responsibility and if you want to make a stupid decision, go with god. The virus has a fairly low mortality rate for healthy people, most people aren't healthy. The fact the vaccine is new is irrelevant because generally speaking you can substitute time with quantity. Most effects are normally distributed in time, and so if you have enough doses given, you can replace the fact it hasn't been around too long with a high number of administrations when making a safety assessment. And it's been given literally billions of times. We've seen the full gamut of consequences. But anyways, 'long-term side effects' don't refer to latent effects. It's not things that magically appear 10 years later. They're effects that last a long time but usually onset almost immediately. There's no reason to think that 5 years of data is better than 3 years of data when administered billions of times. And frankly if you think 3 years and billions of data points are insufficient nothing's going to change your mind. So you may as well stop pretending it's a data issue. As I said, irrationality is your prerogative. But you are wrong.
    - Eumenes 4y ago
      Yeah I'm speaking for myself, and I'm very healthy and fit. If I were not, I'd probably be on other prescription drugs, so what's one more thing? I don't think I've taken an OTC or prescription drug in 10-15 years. My medicine cabinet is empty. I've smoked some weed though. Agreed on the personal responsibility piece. The long-term side effects piece is still undecided and that's undebatable, simply because not enough time has gone by. Maybe I'll be open to changing my mind in 5-10 years. Even then, I'd win, no?

6nf 4y ago

I know people that died from the covid vaccine including a 17 year old healthy kid of a friend. A girl that had zero risk of dying from covid.

elif 4y ago
Why is your annecdote not present in VAERS? Also the cumulative COVID-19 mortality rate in the 15-24 year age group was 0.03% The mortality rate of covid for your undocumented friend is higher than the target group mortality of RSV.
- t0bia_s 4y ago
  It is not. Those 0.03% was not healthy individuals and covid was probably not main cause of detah. In case of medical intervention like vaccination, it is different story. I also know dead persons after covid vaccination, serious injuries also in family. How many healthly people dead from covid do you know?
  - elif 4y ago
    No, those are deaths where a doctor has decided it was the cause, regardless of nonwitnessing internet commenters belief about their standards of judgement. There were 3 deaths on my block, including a renowned weight lifter who was a daily staple at the gym.
    - t0bia_s 4y ago
      Did you know them personaly? Did you know their medical records?
      - arcticbull 4y ago
        Even if I chose to accept your unfounded, not-reported-in-VAERS position as fact, it doesn't change anything. Anecdotes aren't substitutes for medical research. The data is clear that the risk of vaccination is extremely small, and that there are aggregate benefits to vaccination that exceed the risks. Deaths and harm occur in some limited cases in vaccination. They occur in some limited cases without. That's why we have data. One person being harmed cannot stop a program that reduces harm in aggregate. I guarantee you the riskiest thing that child did on a regular basis was get into a car. There's a 1% lifetime risk of death in a car accident in America.