4 ms·

A good public transit system hits all of these marks. Hell, even a shitshow like the NYC subway ticks most or all of the boxes, and it's faster than taking a ca

by nluken 3y ago

A good public transit system hits all of these marks. Hell, even a shitshow like the NYC subway ticks most or all of the boxes, and it's faster than taking a car too. Admittedly, it's not perfect on point 1, but it's still waaaay safer than driving. Americans grossly underestimate how dangerous driving is.

falcolas 3y ago
I went to NYC for work, and the transit system absolutely did not hit all the marks. I had to get to the Jacob Javits conference center, and ended up walking a couple of miles through just-shy-of-sketchy neighborhoods because the single bus was out of service. Every place I needed to go to was over 5m walk away. And point 1 - psychological safety? As far from it as possible. And frankly, 1.3 deaths per 100M miles driven is not that dangerous. 40k per year in a country of 300M is not a lot of folks. Obesity likely kills significantly more.
- anthonypasq 3y ago
  i dont live in NYC so maybe im wrong but the hudson yards station is a 6 minute walk from javits center. Why were you taking a bus? the vast majority of people that live in NYC seem to do perfectly well without a car
  - falcolas 3y ago
    The time I was there, there was no subway connection within a mile of Javits. At least, not one that was open. I needed to connect from a subway to a bus to get there. > the vast majority of people that live in NYC seem to do perfectly well without a car Yes, you can work around a lot of public transport issues (and NY has many of those) by extending your walk. Which is unpleasant in many situations but absolutely possible. And yes, I wouldn't want to drive in NY either. I also knew a few folks who live in the NY suburbs who have a car as well, for when they need to do something other than commute to work in NY.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  Ok well you could have taken a 7 train or one of the many trains that stop on 34th st or Times square and had a walk of less than a mile. The subway system is pretty good and I don't find a 5 minute walk to be that inconvenient. I am happy to not have to think about a car.
  - falcolas 3y ago
    In a way, thank you for highlighting how opaque NY's public transportation is. 7 train is wut? All I could easily find out about (including via Google Maps) was the subway and bus. And a 20m walk in the heat. At least all the skyscrapers provided decent shade.
    - wombat-man 3y ago
      But the 7 train is part of the subway system. I wouldn't really recommend taking a bus in most cases even if google thinks you'll shave a minute or two off your travel time.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > I went to NYC for work, and the transit system absolutely did not hit all the marks. I had to get to the Jacob Javits conference center, and ended up walking a couple of miles through just-shy-of-sketchy neighborhoods because the single bus was out of service. When? The 7 has run directly to the Javits center for nearly ten years now. > a couple of miles through just-shy-of-sketchy neighborhoods This is a common issue for people who visit NYC. It's funadmentally an issue of perception, which makes it hard to address because it's inherently subjective, not rooted in objective facts. To get to the Javits center from the subway, you would have had to walk through the Theater District, Hell's Kitchen, and/or Chelsea. These are some of the wealthiest, most developed, and safest areas in the country. While you may personally perceive it as "just-shy-of-sketchy", that's fundamentally a perception issue: your expectations aren't calibrated in a way that aligns with the actual safety profile of the areas that you're visiting.
tristor 3y ago
> it's still waaaay safer than driving. Americans grossly underestimate how dangerous driving is. I think this is part of why the parent poster used the term "psychological safety". The thing about driving is that you are individually in control, you can choose how you drive and that greatly affects the safety of driving. While public transport may be statistically safer, for some people the lack of control increases the feeling of lack of safety. I am one of those people actually. I've been driving for more than 20 years, I've had several accidents, all of which occurred while my vehicle was fully stopped and I was rear-ended by someone not paying attention, some while my car was parked and I wasn't even in it. I've had zero injuries from driving, and I have an impeccably maintained fleet of vehicles and have extensive driving training (I hold a competition racing license, have driven many different types of vehicles, and have done executive protection/pursuit driving training). I feel significantly safer in a vehicle I own, maintain, and control (including my reactions to others) than I do being exposed trapped in a box with random other people, many of whom are dangerous, without any significant recourse. The only way I'd ever take public transport every day is if self-defense were strongly legally protected and I could be armed at all times, because there are too many crazy people out there that will kill you for looking at them accidentally, or for not dropping a dollar in their hat when they're busking, or whatever other reason they contrive in their delusional minds for why they should harm a random person they don't even know. Statistically I might be safer taking public transport, but in a car I never have to expose myself to random crazies without an escape strategy, and I can choose how I react to other drivers to prevent accidents (I have avoided MANY MANY MANY accidents in my life due to my awareness and superior driving skills).
- nluken 3y ago
  I think your perspective is pretty common among Americans but your argument undercuts itself when you point out that for as good a driver as you are, you've been involved in multiple accidents outside of your control. The insulating environment of a car gives you the illusion of total control, but all the race training in the world can't help you if a drunk driver swerves into your lane just a little too quickly to react to. Even the best drivers in the world can only mitigate risk on public roads, not eliminate it. I'll cynically point out that you can mitigate that risk on public transit too. I feel for the psychological safety aspect, I really do. There are some cities in the US where the public transit system gets underutilized and hosts more bad behavior. From personal experience, MARTA seems rough after COVID, and psychological safety rightfully becomes a huge factor in avoiding the public transit system. But your second to last sentence is pure hysteria. If you feel that unsafe in Boston or NYC, I'd advise you to drive armed too, because you could experience trouble from a "random crazy" with road rage.

by nluken 3y ago

falcolas 3y ago

I went to NYC for work, and the transit system absolutely did not hit all the marks. I had to get to the Jacob Javits conference center, and ended up walking a couple of miles through just-shy-of-sketchy neighborhoods because the single bus was out of service. Every place I needed to go to was over 5m walk away. And point 1 - psychological safety? As far from it as possible. And frankly, 1.3 deaths per 100M miles driven is not that dangerous. 40k per year in a country of 300M is not a lot of folks. Obesity likely kills significantly more.

anthonypasq 3y ago
i dont live in NYC so maybe im wrong but the hudson yards station is a 6 minute walk from javits center. Why were you taking a bus? the vast majority of people that live in NYC seem to do perfectly well without a car
- falcolas 3y ago
  The time I was there, there was no subway connection within a mile of Javits. At least, not one that was open. I needed to connect from a subway to a bus to get there. > the vast majority of people that live in NYC seem to do perfectly well without a car Yes, you can work around a lot of public transport issues (and NY has many of those) by extending your walk. Which is unpleasant in many situations but absolutely possible. And yes, I wouldn't want to drive in NY either. I also knew a few folks who live in the NY suburbs who have a car as well, for when they need to do something other than commute to work in NY.
wombat-man 3y ago
Ok well you could have taken a 7 train or one of the many trains that stop on 34th st or Times square and had a walk of less than a mile. The subway system is pretty good and I don't find a 5 minute walk to be that inconvenient. I am happy to not have to think about a car.
- falcolas 3y ago
  In a way, thank you for highlighting how opaque NY's public transportation is. 7 train is wut? All I could easily find out about (including via Google Maps) was the subway and bus. And a 20m walk in the heat. At least all the skyscrapers provided decent shade.
  - wombat-man 3y ago
    But the 7 train is part of the subway system. I wouldn't really recommend taking a bus in most cases even if google thinks you'll shave a minute or two off your travel time.
chimeracoder 3y ago
> I went to NYC for work, and the transit system absolutely did not hit all the marks. I had to get to the Jacob Javits conference center, and ended up walking a couple of miles through just-shy-of-sketchy neighborhoods because the single bus was out of service. When? The 7 has run directly to the Javits center for nearly ten years now. > a couple of miles through just-shy-of-sketchy neighborhoods This is a common issue for people who visit NYC. It's funadmentally an issue of perception, which makes it hard to address because it's inherently subjective, not rooted in objective facts. To get to the Javits center from the subway, you would have had to walk through the Theater District, Hell's Kitchen, and/or Chelsea. These are some of the wealthiest, most developed, and safest areas in the country. While you may personally perceive it as "just-shy-of-sketchy", that's fundamentally a perception issue: your expectations aren't calibrated in a way that aligns with the actual safety profile of the areas that you're visiting.

tristor 3y ago

> it's still waaaay safer than driving. Americans grossly underestimate how dangerous driving is. I think this is part of why the parent poster used the term "psychological safety". The thing about driving is that you are individually in control, you can choose how you drive and that greatly affects the safety of driving. While public transport may be statistically safer, for some people the lack of control increases the feeling of lack of safety. I am one of those people actually. I've been driving for more than 20 years, I've had several accidents, all of which occurred while my vehicle was fully stopped and I was rear-ended by someone not paying attention, some while my car was parked and I wasn't even in it. I've had zero injuries from driving, and I have an impeccably maintained fleet of vehicles and have extensive driving training (I hold a competition racing license, have driven many different types of vehicles, and have done executive protection/pursuit driving training). I feel significantly safer in a vehicle I own, maintain, and control (including my reactions to others) than I do being exposed trapped in a box with random other people, many of whom are dangerous, without any significant recourse. The only way I'd ever take public transport every day is if self-defense were strongly legally protected and I could be armed at all times, because there are too many crazy people out there that will kill you for looking at them accidentally, or for not dropping a dollar in their hat when they're busking, or whatever other reason they contrive in their delusional minds for why they should harm a random person they don't even know. Statistically I might be safer taking public transport, but in a car I never have to expose myself to random crazies without an escape strategy, and I can choose how I react to other drivers to prevent accidents (I have avoided MANY MANY MANY accidents in my life due to my awareness and superior driving skills).

nluken 3y ago
I think your perspective is pretty common among Americans but your argument undercuts itself when you point out that for as good a driver as you are, you've been involved in multiple accidents outside of your control. The insulating environment of a car gives you the illusion of total control, but all the race training in the world can't help you if a drunk driver swerves into your lane just a little too quickly to react to. Even the best drivers in the world can only mitigate risk on public roads, not eliminate it. I'll cynically point out that you can mitigate that risk on public transit too. I feel for the psychological safety aspect, I really do. There are some cities in the US where the public transit system gets underutilized and hosts more bad behavior. From personal experience, MARTA seems rough after COVID, and psychological safety rightfully becomes a huge factor in avoiding the public transit system. But your second to last sentence is pure hysteria. If you feel that unsafe in Boston or NYC, I'd advise you to drive armed too, because you could experience trouble from a "random crazy" with road rage.