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A related article was published in the NYT today — apparently the city is going to take another try at moving to "containerized garbage." (For anyone who hasn't

A related article was published in the NYT today — apparently the city is going to take another try at moving to "containerized garbage." (For anyone who hasn't been here, the trash is just piled up literally everywhere. It's incredible.) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/03/nyregion/garbage-containers-nyc-adams.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/03/nyregion/garbage-containe... This will be at the "cost" of 150,000 parking spaces… out of three million. Our car-owning minority will fight tooth and nail for their right to cover our sidewalks in sacks of trash, which of course makes sense given that they don't walk anywhere.

barbazoo 3y ago
Lots of us here have experience in "containerizing garbage" :)
sidewndr46 3y ago
I'm still baffled that a city like NY can't make the switch.
- asdajksah2123 3y ago
  It's a political issue. As the article states, parking is the "3rd rail" of local NYC politics.
  - mcv 3y ago
    I thought nobody in NYC had a car.
    - notatoad 3y ago
      8 million people, 3 million parking spaces. compared to most places, that is "nobody"
    - yitianjian 3y ago
      Nobody drives in NYC, there's too much traffic But realistically, plenty of folks have cars in NYC. With a metro area of over 20M people, enough people commute into the city, or aren't close enough to LIRR/MNR/NJT, or prefer driving to visit, or just are needed for commercial/industrial/institutional uses to clog the city's roads. Double parking is infamous in NYC, as are aggressive drivers and terrible roads and parking situations.
      - chimeracoder 3y ago
        > Nobody drives in NYC, there's too much traffic That joke doesn't work because the people who drive in NYC are by and large not NYC residents. > But realistically, plenty of folks have cars in NYC. Depends on your definition of "plenty". NYC is the only city in the country where the majority of residents do not own a car.
    - colechristensen 3y ago
      Because there’s nowhere to park.
    - Retric 3y ago
      There’s roughly 1 parking spot per 7 people. So, cars really are rare comparatively.
      - George83728 3y ago
        I think you could say that car ownership is unusual. But when every street is packed with cars, it's silly to say that cars are rare.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
      The portion who have cars is relatively low, but they heavily skew towards the wealthier part of the population, so they have a disproportionately large amount of political power.
      - 7speter 3y ago
        I dont think you’ve ever been to an outer borough, have you?
        chimeracoder 3y ago
        > I dont think you’ve ever been to an outer borough, have you? While car ownership rates are higher in the outer boroughs, OP is objectively correct that car ownership in NYC skews towards the wealthy. This is a common talking point among people who oppose congestion pricing by incorrectly claiming that it is a regressive tax. In reality, car ownership rates are positively correlated with income, public transit usage is negatively correlated with income. https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion... https://citylimits.org/2017/09/07/debate-fact-check-is-congestion-pricing-regressive/ https://citylimits.org/2017/09/07/debate-fact-check-is-conge...
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > I thought nobody in NYC had a car. Car ownership is relatively rare in NYC, with NYC being the only city in which the majority of residents do not have a car. However, car ownership in NYC is strongly positively correlated with income[0], which means that local politicians and their key supporters are more likely to own cars, drive cars, and listen to the complaints of car-driving non-residents (e.g. the police, the majority of whom live outside the city, mostly in Long Island). That means that politicians are reluctant to back any measure that makes driving or car ownership more inconvenient, not because their constituents don't support it, but because it inconveniences them personally. Anytime it comes up, they make a big effort to back the car-owning minority, making it seem like they're standing up for the "working class", when in reality they're very clearly just taking the stance that their wealthiest donors/supporters are pushing for. [0] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion...
- Finnucane 3y ago
  But not surprised. It's not unusual for NYC to lag behind on issues like this.
masklinn 3y ago
Can't access the article, is that "containerised garbage" in the sense of hard-plastic bins, or in the sense of underground waste containers you throw bags into?
- Eric_WVGG 3y ago
  Bins. (you can view NYT articles by turning off javascript and refreshing, incidentally)
  - masklinn 3y ago
    > Bins. Shame, that's not great in cities, having a hard bin in your yard is cool, having one inside your flat is awful (and in-building storage of hard bins has ended up with rot every time I've seen in). Especially since they often come with tracking these days, which encourages only getting the bins out when they're full, which is not great for clean bins. Though it does talk about collective containers for appartment buildings, so there's things to be optimistic about.
- Someone 3y ago
  Reading the linked article: above ground waste containers. Reading https://dsny.cityofnewyork.us/wp-content/uploads/reports/future-of-trash-april-2023.pdf https://dsny.cityofnewyork.us/wp-content/uploads/reports/fut..., a combination of individual waste bins for some houses and large shared containers above ground. A reason for making that choice is that underground containers require “substantial space to build underground and a comprehensive underground map that does not exist in New York City” That makes me wonder how they build anything there.
robbyking 3y ago
When you start thinking of street parking as publicly funded storage space for private property, it really makes you question why such a large percentage of urban space (and money) is dedicated to it.
logicalmonster 3y ago
There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, or a government policy that is only upside without some downsides. Containerized Garbage is something that sounds really good, but there's always unexpected consequences to new policies. Here's a quick stab at some of them. 1) Less Safe Roads. New Yorkers in many areas have to drive around for half an hour or an hour or more sometimes to find an open parking spot. This already leads to deeply frazzled nerves and unsafe driving as drivers scoot around oblivious to traffic and pedestrians to try and find a spot. I've seen drivers down main streets see a spot open up and immediately try and do a U-Turn into oncoming traffic, or just gun it through an intersection to try and be the first one to grab an open spot. Remove 5% of parking spaces, and this stuff increases. Maybe more people will get hurt in pointless accidents. 2) Fewer Spots lead to more parking tickets. These are of marginal impact on the well-off, but a struggling person who receives an unexpected ticket is completely fucked. The same people who claim to be on the side of the downtrodden and struggling classes truly ignore the actual impacts of their social engineering on those people. And as much as you might not like cars, many people have employment or childcare needs that depends on them. 3) Air Pollution and waste of gas. Garbage on the sidewalk is unsightly and horrible to see, but there's more than one kind of pollution. As mentioned, there are areas in the city where it's routine to drive around 30-60+ minutes to find a parking spot. Now increase all of this by a percentage, and more cars will be spewing exhaust fumes for longer. Is it a real win to tradeoff cleaner sidewalks for dirtier air? Maybe that's the best tradeoff, but I think it's important to recognize that there might be a tradeoff. Despite all of this, I'm not saying that containerized garbage isn't a good idea. I'm just playing a little devil's advocate here. But just wanting to point out a different perspective that there's always some ignored bad that comes with every good.
- stephenitis 3y ago
  please travel to Vienna Austria where this is already implemented, none of the problems you listed are of major concern there in my experience. It's made that city a much cleaner and organized situation.
- kgermino 3y ago
  All three of those are side effects of underpriced parking, not containerization. Yes removing a few percent of parking spaces will make the mismatch slightly worse (since less supply means the price should rise a bit more) but that’s not the root cause of the problem
sschueller 3y ago
There is a much better solution but it requires investment. [1] This is what we have in Switzerland in the city's where there is zero room for garbage. The cost here is around 50k to 150k depending on size and if there is a compactor also built in. No smell and no mess. [1] https://youtu.be/xhbhvdvTWUg https://youtu.be/xhbhvdvTWUg
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > There is a much better solution but it requires investment. This is what we have in Switzerland in the city's where there is zero room for garbage. This would be a nonstarter in NYC, because large parts of the city are unmapped underground (because they were built in an era when records weren't kept methodically). Digging is expensive because you don't actually have a centralized record of where gas lines, water mains, cables, etc. all are - you have to uncover it carefully, see what's there, and then work around it. > The cost here is around 50k to 150k depending on size and if there is a compactor also built in. No smell and no mess. Everything costs much more in NYC, even before you factor in the aforementioned issues.
  - sschueller 3y ago
    > This would be a nonstarter in NYC, because large parts of the city are unmapped underground (because they were built in an era when records weren't kept methodically). Digging is expensive because you don't actually have a centralized record of where gas lines, water mains, cables, etc. all are - you have to uncover it carefully, see what's there, and then work around it. So just give up? Maybe there should be an effort to correctly map all lines and improve the general infrastructure.
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > So just give up? Not unless you think there's no other option between "do something that's ill-suited for the local problem" and "do nothing". > Maybe there should be an effort to correctly map all lines and improve the general infrastructure. Sit down and think about both the logistics of this and the cost, and map out what you think a reasonable timeline for that would be, and you'll hopefully understand why that's a nonstarter for a sanitation problem that requires an imminent solution.
etrautmann 3y ago
I’m sympathetic to the argument but the us vs them mentality here seems counter productive.

barbazoo 3y ago

Lots of us here have experience in "containerizing garbage" :)

sidewndr46 3y ago

I'm still baffled that a city like NY can't make the switch.

asdajksah2123 3y ago
It's a political issue. As the article states, parking is the "3rd rail" of local NYC politics.
- mcv 3y ago
  I thought nobody in NYC had a car.
  - notatoad 3y ago
    8 million people, 3 million parking spaces. compared to most places, that is "nobody"
  - yitianjian 3y ago
    Nobody drives in NYC, there's too much traffic But realistically, plenty of folks have cars in NYC. With a metro area of over 20M people, enough people commute into the city, or aren't close enough to LIRR/MNR/NJT, or prefer driving to visit, or just are needed for commercial/industrial/institutional uses to clog the city's roads. Double parking is infamous in NYC, as are aggressive drivers and terrible roads and parking situations.
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > Nobody drives in NYC, there's too much traffic That joke doesn't work because the people who drive in NYC are by and large not NYC residents. > But realistically, plenty of folks have cars in NYC. Depends on your definition of "plenty". NYC is the only city in the country where the majority of residents do not own a car.
  - colechristensen 3y ago
    Because there’s nowhere to park.
  - Retric 3y ago
    There’s roughly 1 parking spot per 7 people. So, cars really are rare comparatively.
    - George83728 3y ago
      I think you could say that car ownership is unusual. But when every street is packed with cars, it's silly to say that cars are rare.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    The portion who have cars is relatively low, but they heavily skew towards the wealthier part of the population, so they have a disproportionately large amount of political power.
    - 7speter 3y ago
      I dont think you’ve ever been to an outer borough, have you?
      - chimeracoder 3y ago
        > I dont think you’ve ever been to an outer borough, have you? While car ownership rates are higher in the outer boroughs, OP is objectively correct that car ownership in NYC skews towards the wealthy. This is a common talking point among people who oppose congestion pricing by incorrectly claiming that it is a regressive tax. In reality, car ownership rates are positively correlated with income, public transit usage is negatively correlated with income. https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion... https://citylimits.org/2017/09/07/debate-fact-check-is-congestion-pricing-regressive/ https://citylimits.org/2017/09/07/debate-fact-check-is-conge...
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > I thought nobody in NYC had a car. Car ownership is relatively rare in NYC, with NYC being the only city in which the majority of residents do not have a car. However, car ownership in NYC is strongly positively correlated with income[0], which means that local politicians and their key supporters are more likely to own cars, drive cars, and listen to the complaints of car-driving non-residents (e.g. the police, the majority of whom live outside the city, mostly in Long Island). That means that politicians are reluctant to back any measure that makes driving or car ownership more inconvenient, not because their constituents don't support it, but because it inconveniences them personally. Anytime it comes up, they make a big effort to back the car-owning minority, making it seem like they're standing up for the "working class", when in reality they're very clearly just taking the stance that their wealthiest donors/supporters are pushing for. [0] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion-pricing-is-not-a-regressive-tax/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2007/11/02/fact-check-congestion...
Finnucane 3y ago
But not surprised. It's not unusual for NYC to lag behind on issues like this.

masklinn 3y ago

Can't access the article, is that "containerised garbage" in the sense of hard-plastic bins, or in the sense of underground waste containers you throw bags into?

Eric_WVGG 3y ago
Bins. (you can view NYT articles by turning off javascript and refreshing, incidentally)
- masklinn 3y ago
  > Bins. Shame, that's not great in cities, having a hard bin in your yard is cool, having one inside your flat is awful (and in-building storage of hard bins has ended up with rot every time I've seen in). Especially since they often come with tracking these days, which encourages only getting the bins out when they're full, which is not great for clean bins. Though it does talk about collective containers for appartment buildings, so there's things to be optimistic about.
Someone 3y ago
Reading the linked article: above ground waste containers. Reading https://dsny.cityofnewyork.us/wp-content/uploads/reports/future-of-trash-april-2023.pdf https://dsny.cityofnewyork.us/wp-content/uploads/reports/fut..., a combination of individual waste bins for some houses and large shared containers above ground. A reason for making that choice is that underground containers require “substantial space to build underground and a comprehensive underground map that does not exist in New York City” That makes me wonder how they build anything there.

robbyking 3y ago

When you start thinking of street parking as publicly funded storage space for private property, it really makes you question why such a large percentage of urban space (and money) is dedicated to it.

logicalmonster 3y ago

There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, or a government policy that is only upside without some downsides. Containerized Garbage is something that sounds really good, but there's always unexpected consequences to new policies. Here's a quick stab at some of them. 1) Less Safe Roads. New Yorkers in many areas have to drive around for half an hour or an hour or more sometimes to find an open parking spot. This already leads to deeply frazzled nerves and unsafe driving as drivers scoot around oblivious to traffic and pedestrians to try and find a spot. I've seen drivers down main streets see a spot open up and immediately try and do a U-Turn into oncoming traffic, or just gun it through an intersection to try and be the first one to grab an open spot. Remove 5% of parking spaces, and this stuff increases. Maybe more people will get hurt in pointless accidents. 2) Fewer Spots lead to more parking tickets. These are of marginal impact on the well-off, but a struggling person who receives an unexpected ticket is completely fucked. The same people who claim to be on the side of the downtrodden and struggling classes truly ignore the actual impacts of their social engineering on those people. And as much as you might not like cars, many people have employment or childcare needs that depends on them. 3) Air Pollution and waste of gas. Garbage on the sidewalk is unsightly and horrible to see, but there's more than one kind of pollution. As mentioned, there are areas in the city where it's routine to drive around 30-60+ minutes to find a parking spot. Now increase all of this by a percentage, and more cars will be spewing exhaust fumes for longer. Is it a real win to tradeoff cleaner sidewalks for dirtier air? Maybe that's the best tradeoff, but I think it's important to recognize that there might be a tradeoff. Despite all of this, I'm not saying that containerized garbage isn't a good idea. I'm just playing a little devil's advocate here. But just wanting to point out a different perspective that there's always some ignored bad that comes with every good.

stephenitis 3y ago
please travel to Vienna Austria where this is already implemented, none of the problems you listed are of major concern there in my experience. It's made that city a much cleaner and organized situation.
kgermino 3y ago
All three of those are side effects of underpriced parking, not containerization. Yes removing a few percent of parking spaces will make the mismatch slightly worse (since less supply means the price should rise a bit more) but that’s not the root cause of the problem

sschueller 3y ago

There is a much better solution but it requires investment. [1] This is what we have in Switzerland in the city's where there is zero room for garbage. The cost here is around 50k to 150k depending on size and if there is a compactor also built in. No smell and no mess. [1] https://youtu.be/xhbhvdvTWUg https://youtu.be/xhbhvdvTWUg

chimeracoder 3y ago
> There is a much better solution but it requires investment. This is what we have in Switzerland in the city's where there is zero room for garbage. This would be a nonstarter in NYC, because large parts of the city are unmapped underground (because they were built in an era when records weren't kept methodically). Digging is expensive because you don't actually have a centralized record of where gas lines, water mains, cables, etc. all are - you have to uncover it carefully, see what's there, and then work around it. > The cost here is around 50k to 150k depending on size and if there is a compactor also built in. No smell and no mess. Everything costs much more in NYC, even before you factor in the aforementioned issues.
- sschueller 3y ago
  > This would be a nonstarter in NYC, because large parts of the city are unmapped underground (because they were built in an era when records weren't kept methodically). Digging is expensive because you don't actually have a centralized record of where gas lines, water mains, cables, etc. all are - you have to uncover it carefully, see what's there, and then work around it. So just give up? Maybe there should be an effort to correctly map all lines and improve the general infrastructure.
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > So just give up? Not unless you think there's no other option between "do something that's ill-suited for the local problem" and "do nothing". > Maybe there should be an effort to correctly map all lines and improve the general infrastructure. Sit down and think about both the logistics of this and the cost, and map out what you think a reasonable timeline for that would be, and you'll hopefully understand why that's a nonstarter for a sanitation problem that requires an imminent solution.

etrautmann 3y ago

I’m sympathetic to the argument but the us vs them mentality here seems counter productive.