5 ms·

I've been waiting for this machine for so long, excited to see the actual CPU unveil. I may be out of date, but is the issue with not entering sleep mode proper

by jjice 4y ago

I've been waiting for this machine for so long, excited to see the actual CPU unveil. I may be out of date, but is the issue with not entering sleep mode properly resolved? That's a huge issue to me. Aside from Framework, does anyone suggest any other existing laptops that keep a fairly slim design while also offering lots of user repairability? I've had an okay experience with my Thinkpad X1 Carbon Gen 3, but she's getting old, especially now that everything depends on video transcoding that it doesn't support at the hardware level.

avargas 4y ago
Apparently with the Ryzen processor, the slots are limited: "The Framework Laptop 13 with Ryzen™ 7040 Series processors has two fully capable USB4 ports, with the back left and back right Expansion Cards slots. The front left Expansion Card slot can handle both USB 3.2 and DisplayPort Alt Mode, while the front right Expansion Card can use USB 3.2. This does mean there is one Expansion Card slot that can't support the HDMI or DisplayPort Expansion Cards, and most OS's will provide a warning if you forget. You can charge your Framework Laptop through any of the four Expansion Cards as well.". This is borderline a deal breaker for me.
- TOMDM 4y ago
  That's pretty rough, one of the great things about the Framework was being able to treat all ports the same. Is there any explenation on why they couldn't achieve this with AMD's new chips? I'm sure they would have supported that if they were able to.
  - mfer 4y ago
    It has to do with what the chips can support. Compare the AMD USB channels [1] with the Intel Thunderbold channels [2]. Intel has more channels for motherboard/system manufacturers to work with. [1] https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/ryzen-7-7840u.c3212#gallery-2 https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/ryzen-7-7840u.c3212#ga... [2] https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i7-1370p.c3055#gallery-2 https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i7-1370p.c3055#ga...
    - rektide 4y ago
      It's such a pity AMD revolutionized bandwidth & interconnectivity on Epyc (128 lanes PCIe) , but has left consumers hanging. Threadripper HDET was 64 lanes (the Pro really was a full Epyc, 128 lanes, 8 channel memory) but now Threadripper is gone. Meanwhile desktop & mobile have been so capped, at 20 - 24 lanes, right where we were. The Thunderbolt 4 abilities of Intel chips is just stunning. 160Gbps of connectivity, usable for host to host connectivity... I wish AMD were trying to catch up here, wouldnt compromise their lead by being so far behind here.
- maztaim 4y ago
  What are you expecting to run off all four slots that makes that a dealbreaker?
  - rektide 4y ago
    Expect the unexpected. It doesn't have to be a rational known ask. We are Hackers. We want to be ready for whatever. That day when there's a 4 screen display wall? Ready. Connecting to a thunderbolt NAS, a display, a desktop, and our friends laptop? Ready. "What is the use case" is the deadening soul sucking most un Hackerly thing to ask. Computers are amazing general purpose machines & we celebrate their flexible utility. We don't know where flexibility always leads but we value it. We value open systems, open possibilities, open frontiers, not being bounded. Edit: based on the voting, I guess only some of us on HN are Hackers! I also have example use cases too, to be constructive, but guess that's not enough for the cynics.
    - ior4uiofrjnev 4y ago
      A "hacker" is someone who makes something do what it wasn't intended to do. Plugging a high-end laptop into the correct number of monitors is not hacking. Maybe stick to Intel chipsets if you must have 4 screens. Or maybe cover over the 4th port, and pretend you have 3 fully-functional ports?
      - rektide 4y ago
        That's a pretty good definition. It think there's more an element of being able to pull off the not forseen. A good code hacker isn't exactly defying computer architecture to extract their wins; they're finding brilliant solutions & cobbling together interesting systems that happen to meet the needs. I think AMD needs the pressure. 4x Thunderbolt 4 is amazing. AMD offering 2x USB 4 is such a massive downgrade. Just a shake of the head & saying "go buy Intel" as if this is some natural expected unnoteworthy situation doesn't cut it for me.
        tracker1 4y ago
- dathinab 4y ago
  it sounds bad but it's pretty common in any multi USB-C port laptop and most times the intuitive port usage will anyway be the right one Like most external devices don't benefit in a notivable degree from USB-4 over USB-3.2. The most common exceptions are expanders, docks, monitors with integrated docks, eGPUs and similar. But most of the you would normally anyway prefer on the back ports to get the cables out of the way. Where the front ports are more often used for input devices, usb disks and similar. But they very very often yield the same practical performance on USB-3.2 and USB-4 (not always, but _really_ often). So yes for some people which want 4 USB-4 port or 2 USB-4 ports and a HDMI port and a charging port and are not okay with the charging cable being on the front right port. But the huge majority of people will not care. And there are limitations with what the different laptop CPUs can support so it's not that they could just have magically added additional USB-4 ports or give DP support to all ports.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
[corrected]
- TOMDM 4y ago
  Out of date as in their understanding of the tech, not the tech itself.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Oh right, I think my dyslexia kicked in and I read "it may be out of date". I need some rest.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
wazoox 4y ago
The (quite cheap) Lenovo Ideapads are quite good. I've upgraded my S540 with 32 GB of RAM (instead of the base 8) myself, it can receive a second M.2 SSD, and the first one is also upgradeable. The only small problem is with the keyboard : the most used keys are completely blank after 3 years of use :)
- prmoustache 4y ago
  > The only small problem is with the keyboard : the most used keys are completely blank after 3 years of use :) After 3 years of use you should have be used to the keymap and not have to look at the keys anyway.
  - wazoox 4y ago
    Oh I don't look at the keys, but first it's ugly, and second at some point there will be holes in the key caps :)
nrp 4y ago
S3 sleep isn't really supported anymore by either Intel or AMD. Both have been improving S0ix with each kernel release though. We've also made optimizations on our side around retimer/port behavior that substantially improve battery life in sleep. We'll be sharing more detail around that in the next couple of weeks.
- mey 4y ago
  nrp, quick note about website content. You should update the details pop-up for the Port Expansion Cards for the USB-C card. Reading the new press release, it seems that each slot is no longer equal on this main board, but on the order page, it implies that all slots are equal for the USB-C card.
seabrookmx 4y ago
I've been daily driving a 12th-gen Framework on Fedora 36/37. Sleep itself has worked flawless, although you'll get a graphics driver freeze/crash every odd resume if you don't disable "panel self refresh."[0] I revert this setting every kernel update to see if it's fixed and have not encountered it on 6.2.12 so YMMV. I kind of assumed this was a Linux quirk and that Windows would be fine, but I haven't tried it. [0]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics#Screen_flickering https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics#Screen_flick...
- dathinab 4y ago
  yes it's a know issue with the linux GPU driver for the intel integrated graphics, I think it was specific to the 12th gen or even just a subset of 12th gen but I'm not sure 11th gen doesn't have this issue, but is ...well... 11th gen if you know what I mean
smeej 4y ago
I haven't been able to resolve it. My Framework is basically a desktop with a (really weak) hinge. It's the only computer I've ever had that falls all the way open if you pick it up even partially open, and the only one that won't ever actually go to sleep. I still use it a lot. I just don't ever unplug it for more than a couple hours.
- evandev 4y ago
  Looks like they have a better hinge that you can change out your weak hinge. https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001 https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001
- The_SamminAter 4y ago
  Framework will mail you new hinges if you follow the support form on their website. I had this issue (as well as a warped laptop bottom), and they replaced both for free.
verall 4y ago
I got a brand new 12th gen intel Framework 13 and it still cannot enter sleep correctly. If it falls asleep due to battery, it reboots. Framework forums report tons of people with the same problem. It's pretty annoying.

by jjice 4y ago

avargas 4y ago

Apparently with the Ryzen processor, the slots are limited: "The Framework Laptop 13 with Ryzen™ 7040 Series processors has two fully capable USB4 ports, with the back left and back right Expansion Cards slots. The front left Expansion Card slot can handle both USB 3.2 and DisplayPort Alt Mode, while the front right Expansion Card can use USB 3.2. This does mean there is one Expansion Card slot that can't support the HDMI or DisplayPort Expansion Cards, and most OS's will provide a warning if you forget. You can charge your Framework Laptop through any of the four Expansion Cards as well.". This is borderline a deal breaker for me.

TOMDM 4y ago
That's pretty rough, one of the great things about the Framework was being able to treat all ports the same. Is there any explenation on why they couldn't achieve this with AMD's new chips? I'm sure they would have supported that if they were able to.
- mfer 4y ago
  It has to do with what the chips can support. Compare the AMD USB channels [1] with the Intel Thunderbold channels [2]. Intel has more channels for motherboard/system manufacturers to work with. [1] https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/ryzen-7-7840u.c3212#gallery-2 https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/ryzen-7-7840u.c3212#ga... [2] https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i7-1370p.c3055#gallery-2 https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i7-1370p.c3055#ga...
  - rektide 4y ago
    It's such a pity AMD revolutionized bandwidth & interconnectivity on Epyc (128 lanes PCIe) , but has left consumers hanging. Threadripper HDET was 64 lanes (the Pro really was a full Epyc, 128 lanes, 8 channel memory) but now Threadripper is gone. Meanwhile desktop & mobile have been so capped, at 20 - 24 lanes, right where we were. The Thunderbolt 4 abilities of Intel chips is just stunning. 160Gbps of connectivity, usable for host to host connectivity... I wish AMD were trying to catch up here, wouldnt compromise their lead by being so far behind here.
maztaim 4y ago
What are you expecting to run off all four slots that makes that a dealbreaker?
- rektide 4y ago
  Expect the unexpected. It doesn't have to be a rational known ask. We are Hackers. We want to be ready for whatever. That day when there's a 4 screen display wall? Ready. Connecting to a thunderbolt NAS, a display, a desktop, and our friends laptop? Ready. "What is the use case" is the deadening soul sucking most un Hackerly thing to ask. Computers are amazing general purpose machines & we celebrate their flexible utility. We don't know where flexibility always leads but we value it. We value open systems, open possibilities, open frontiers, not being bounded. Edit: based on the voting, I guess only some of us on HN are Hackers! I also have example use cases too, to be constructive, but guess that's not enough for the cynics.
  - ior4uiofrjnev 4y ago
    A "hacker" is someone who makes something do what it wasn't intended to do. Plugging a high-end laptop into the correct number of monitors is not hacking. Maybe stick to Intel chipsets if you must have 4 screens. Or maybe cover over the 4th port, and pretend you have 3 fully-functional ports?
    - rektide 4y ago
      That's a pretty good definition. It think there's more an element of being able to pull off the not forseen. A good code hacker isn't exactly defying computer architecture to extract their wins; they're finding brilliant solutions & cobbling together interesting systems that happen to meet the needs. I think AMD needs the pressure. 4x Thunderbolt 4 is amazing. AMD offering 2x USB 4 is such a massive downgrade. Just a shake of the head & saying "go buy Intel" as if this is some natural expected unnoteworthy situation doesn't cut it for me.
      - tracker1 4y ago
dathinab 4y ago
it sounds bad but it's pretty common in any multi USB-C port laptop and most times the intuitive port usage will anyway be the right one Like most external devices don't benefit in a notivable degree from USB-4 over USB-3.2. The most common exceptions are expanders, docks, monitors with integrated docks, eGPUs and similar. But most of the you would normally anyway prefer on the back ports to get the cables out of the way. Where the front ports are more often used for input devices, usb disks and similar. But they very very often yield the same practical performance on USB-3.2 and USB-4 (not always, but _really_ often). So yes for some people which want 4 USB-4 port or 2 USB-4 ports and a HDMI port and a charging port and are not okay with the charging cable being on the front right port. But the huge majority of people will not care. And there are limitations with what the different laptop CPUs can support so it's not that they could just have magically added additional USB-4 ports or give DP support to all ports.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

[corrected]

TOMDM 4y ago
Out of date as in their understanding of the tech, not the tech itself.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Oh right, I think my dyslexia kicked in and I read "it may be out of date". I need some rest.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

wazoox 4y ago

The (quite cheap) Lenovo Ideapads are quite good. I've upgraded my S540 with 32 GB of RAM (instead of the base 8) myself, it can receive a second M.2 SSD, and the first one is also upgradeable. The only small problem is with the keyboard : the most used keys are completely blank after 3 years of use :)

prmoustache 4y ago
> The only small problem is with the keyboard : the most used keys are completely blank after 3 years of use :) After 3 years of use you should have be used to the keymap and not have to look at the keys anyway.
- wazoox 4y ago
  Oh I don't look at the keys, but first it's ugly, and second at some point there will be holes in the key caps :)

nrp 4y ago

S3 sleep isn't really supported anymore by either Intel or AMD. Both have been improving S0ix with each kernel release though. We've also made optimizations on our side around retimer/port behavior that substantially improve battery life in sleep. We'll be sharing more detail around that in the next couple of weeks.

mey 4y ago
nrp, quick note about website content. You should update the details pop-up for the Port Expansion Cards for the USB-C card. Reading the new press release, it seems that each slot is no longer equal on this main board, but on the order page, it implies that all slots are equal for the USB-C card.

seabrookmx 4y ago

I've been daily driving a 12th-gen Framework on Fedora 36/37. Sleep itself has worked flawless, although you'll get a graphics driver freeze/crash every odd resume if you don't disable "panel self refresh."[0] I revert this setting every kernel update to see if it's fixed and have not encountered it on 6.2.12 so YMMV. I kind of assumed this was a Linux quirk and that Windows would be fine, but I haven't tried it. [0]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics#Screen_flickering https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics#Screen_flick...

dathinab 4y ago
yes it's a know issue with the linux GPU driver for the intel integrated graphics, I think it was specific to the 12th gen or even just a subset of 12th gen but I'm not sure 11th gen doesn't have this issue, but is ...well... 11th gen if you know what I mean

smeej 4y ago

I haven't been able to resolve it. My Framework is basically a desktop with a (really weak) hinge. It's the only computer I've ever had that falls all the way open if you pick it up even partially open, and the only one that won't ever actually go to sleep. I still use it a lot. I just don't ever unplug it for more than a couple hours.

evandev 4y ago
Looks like they have a better hinge that you can change out your weak hinge. https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001 https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001
The_SamminAter 4y ago
Framework will mail you new hinges if you follow the support form on their website. I had this issue (as well as a warped laptop bottom), and they replaced both for free.

verall 4y ago

I got a brand new 12th gen intel Framework 13 and it still cannot enter sleep correctly. If it falls asleep due to battery, it reboots. Framework forums report tons of people with the same problem. It's pretty annoying.