7 ms·

Oh no! You've gone through dependency hell so many times you've started writing your own package management! I'm only half kidding, this is pretty cool, but I'

Oh no! You've gone through dependency hell so many times you've started writing your own package management! I'm only half kidding, this is pretty cool, but I'm also really sorry that it has come to this for you and your tooling!

zeven7 3y ago
This is JS. Dependency hell is par for the course.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Genuinely curious — what language do you think has good/better package management? Every time I start a Python project, for example, there's a bunch of time and frustration spent getting pip and virtual envs working.
  - moron4hire 3y ago
    I haven't had any package management troubles with .NET in over a decade.
    - HideousKojima 3y ago
      Only times I've run into dependency issues with .NET are when a library expects certain native DLLs to already be present on the system, but that's pretty rare (and fairly easy to solve).
    - zovin 3y ago
      Especially since moving to SDK-style projects, I haven't even thought about assembly bindings in a long time. I've come to really like nuget.
  - frizkie 3y ago
    You didn't ask me this question, but I work in Ruby, and off the top of my head, have no complaints about Bundler. Switching Ruby versions between projects is not something that is handled natively in any way (unsurprisingly?) and I know that I've struggled a lot with `rvm`, but since switching to *env (rbenv, pyenv, nodenv) I can safely say I do not have any struggles on that front either.
    - salzig 3y ago
      You should give asdf-vm a chance. Like rbenv, but for almost everything. Switch is easy, using legacyfile support almost unnoticeable.
      - technion 3y ago
        I feel ruby's whole problem in this space is that everyone recommends a different tool. I've used several. None are terrible. But walking into an environment and getting told everyone uses a different tool is
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    Rust is the golden standard. python and js are on part with each other, they just have different problems: - tooling and dependencies are hell in js - bootstrapping is half the battle in python (see https://bitecode.substack.com/p/relieving-your-python-packaging-pain https://bitecode.substack.com/p/relieving-your-python-packag...)
    - k__ 3y ago
      Python devs always told me npm was better than pip
      - xeromal 3y ago
        As a python and node dev, I think NPM wins out just because I don't have to "activate" an environment when I want to use it. The environment is always right there where my code is.
      - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
        Pip and npm are pretty much equivalent, but node_modules makes for an easier setup, while venv makes for easier tooling configuration.
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    They are talking about client development so none of the answers are going to compare. You aren’t grabbing ESMs from CDNs for a Node server app. And even if you are, that’s just not a situation that’s happening outside of an ecosystem that straddles client development.
  - tnorthcutt 3y ago
    Of the three languages that I deal with semi-frequently (JS, Python, and PHP), I have by far the least trouble with PHP's package management.
    - noir_lord 3y ago
      composer is remarkable in that it causes very few problems in practice. It’s an excellent package manager in a mainstream language that just does its job. It helps that the PHP community mostly just saw PSR4 and went, yeah, that’ll do. Meanwhile over in JS land issues are still caused because different modules use different module formats and it’s all just…fragile somehow. Ironic give the reputation of PHP that it nailed its package manager.
      - jamesfinlayson 3y ago
        I know - PHP cops a lot of flack but composer just works and has never given me any grief.
  - dingledork69 3y ago
    Java/Maven
  - chao- 3y ago
    In my mind, anyone setting out to create a package manager, or a new language that will need one, needs to at least match the functionality of Gems/Bundler or Hex/Mix. They've been around long enough that it feels like table stakes at this point. Mix does more than just dependencies, however I am referring the table stakes as being the more narrow scope of dependency management.
  - sodapopcan 3y ago
    Elixir’s tooling, Mix, is really great.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    Fortran: fpm is really nice. Go: modules.
- simplotek 3y ago
  > This is JS. Dependency hell is par for the course. Is there any programming language that does not suffer from dependency hell?
  - pier25 3y ago
    Obviously it's a matter of degree, but languages with a better standard library seem less affected by dependency hell.
    - simplotek 3y ago
      > (...) but languages with a better standard library seem less affected by dependency hell. Let's ignore the hand-waving over what "better standard library" means. Dependency hell has zero to do with standard libraries, and is exclusively related to modularity. If your language supports third party modules that can depend on third party modules, you have dependency management. Managing dependencies so far is hell, no matter how you go about it.
      - pier25 3y ago
        Of course it's related. The more the standard library provides for you, the less you need to rely on third party dependencies.
- cxr 3y ago
  This particular incarnation of the problem is a thing because this is actually not (standards-compliant) JS. This is a direct consequence of people infecting everything with non-standard NodeJS-isms (or NodeJS-inspired isms).

zeven7 3y ago

This is JS. Dependency hell is par for the course.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
Genuinely curious — what language do you think has good/better package management? Every time I start a Python project, for example, there's a bunch of time and frustration spent getting pip and virtual envs working.
- moron4hire 3y ago
  I haven't had any package management troubles with .NET in over a decade.
  - HideousKojima 3y ago
    Only times I've run into dependency issues with .NET are when a library expects certain native DLLs to already be present on the system, but that's pretty rare (and fairly easy to solve).
  - zovin 3y ago
    Especially since moving to SDK-style projects, I haven't even thought about assembly bindings in a long time. I've come to really like nuget.
- frizkie 3y ago
  You didn't ask me this question, but I work in Ruby, and off the top of my head, have no complaints about Bundler. Switching Ruby versions between projects is not something that is handled natively in any way (unsurprisingly?) and I know that I've struggled a lot with `rvm`, but since switching to *env (rbenv, pyenv, nodenv) I can safely say I do not have any struggles on that front either.
  - salzig 3y ago
    You should give asdf-vm a chance. Like rbenv, but for almost everything. Switch is easy, using legacyfile support almost unnoticeable.
    - technion 3y ago
      I feel ruby's whole problem in this space is that everyone recommends a different tool. I've used several. None are terrible. But walking into an environment and getting told everyone uses a different tool is
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  Rust is the golden standard. python and js are on part with each other, they just have different problems: - tooling and dependencies are hell in js - bootstrapping is half the battle in python (see https://bitecode.substack.com/p/relieving-your-python-packaging-pain https://bitecode.substack.com/p/relieving-your-python-packag...)
  - k__ 3y ago
    Python devs always told me npm was better than pip
    - xeromal 3y ago
      As a python and node dev, I think NPM wins out just because I don't have to "activate" an environment when I want to use it. The environment is always right there where my code is.
    - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
      Pip and npm are pretty much equivalent, but node_modules makes for an easier setup, while venv makes for easier tooling configuration.
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  They are talking about client development so none of the answers are going to compare. You aren’t grabbing ESMs from CDNs for a Node server app. And even if you are, that’s just not a situation that’s happening outside of an ecosystem that straddles client development.
- tnorthcutt 3y ago
  Of the three languages that I deal with semi-frequently (JS, Python, and PHP), I have by far the least trouble with PHP's package management.
  - noir_lord 3y ago
    composer is remarkable in that it causes very few problems in practice. It’s an excellent package manager in a mainstream language that just does its job. It helps that the PHP community mostly just saw PSR4 and went, yeah, that’ll do. Meanwhile over in JS land issues are still caused because different modules use different module formats and it’s all just…fragile somehow. Ironic give the reputation of PHP that it nailed its package manager.
    - jamesfinlayson 3y ago
      I know - PHP cops a lot of flack but composer just works and has never given me any grief.
- dingledork69 3y ago
  Java/Maven
- chao- 3y ago
  In my mind, anyone setting out to create a package manager, or a new language that will need one, needs to at least match the functionality of Gems/Bundler or Hex/Mix. They've been around long enough that it feels like table stakes at this point. Mix does more than just dependencies, however I am referring the table stakes as being the more narrow scope of dependency management.
- sodapopcan 3y ago
  Elixir’s tooling, Mix, is really great.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  Fortran: fpm is really nice. Go: modules.
simplotek 3y ago
> This is JS. Dependency hell is par for the course. Is there any programming language that does not suffer from dependency hell?
- pier25 3y ago
  Obviously it's a matter of degree, but languages with a better standard library seem less affected by dependency hell.
  - simplotek 3y ago
    > (...) but languages with a better standard library seem less affected by dependency hell. Let's ignore the hand-waving over what "better standard library" means. Dependency hell has zero to do with standard libraries, and is exclusively related to modularity. If your language supports third party modules that can depend on third party modules, you have dependency management. Managing dependencies so far is hell, no matter how you go about it.
    - pier25 3y ago
      Of course it's related. The more the standard library provides for you, the less you need to rely on third party dependencies.
cxr 3y ago
This particular incarnation of the problem is a thing because this is actually not (standards-compliant) JS. This is a direct consequence of people infecting everything with non-standard NodeJS-isms (or NodeJS-inspired isms).