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I am puzzled by the lack of keyboard layouts for Switzerland (we have the cash to spend on such novelties!). Also, no DVORAK? Is this for hackers or not? Frenc

by column 3y ago

I am puzzled by the lack of keyboard layouts for Switzerland (we have the cash to spend on such novelties!). Also, no DVORAK? Is this for hackers or not? French Canadian $99 English International $99 German $99 US English $99 French $99 British English $99 Clear ANSI $109 Blank ANSI $109 Black ISO $109 Clear ISO $109

Entinel 3y ago
> Also, no DVORAK? Is this for hackers or not? I can't imagine they would sell enough DVORAK layout to make it worth it.
Taywee 3y ago
As a long time Dvorak user, I'm always baffled by people wanting visual Dvorak layouts and physically rearranging their keycaps (which is a really bad idea on many keyboards, with cap angle differing by row). Dvorak really speeds up touch typing (edit: hypothetically, or at least makes it more comfortable). If you're looking at your hands while typing, just use qwerty. Dvorak won't help you. You can use Dvorak regardless of what letters are printed on the keycaps.
- cge 3y ago
  For some reason, typing non-word-phrase passwords, especially unfamiliar ones, on a keyboard without being able to see the correct keycaps often seems challenging, even though I can touch type very well for text and for programming. It feels like there is some aspect of typing something that requires a character-by-character rational thought process to type that interrupts an instinctive memory of where each character is located. With that said, having Dvorak keys on my laptop would make the keyboard unusable or very difficult to use for a large number of other people, and so even if one were offered, I'd be unlikely to buy it. Even for many people who touch type well, I think having keycaps that are wrong when one does glance at them is something that takes some experience to get used to, and a Dvorak user typically has that experience, whereas a Qwerty user usually doesn't.
- pr0zac 3y ago
  I mean yeah, but learning a new layout is a lot easier when the keycaps match. Also if someone who only knows qwerty has to use your computer for whatever reason they can still hunt and peck vs it being completely impossible.
  - rgoulter 3y ago
    > but learning a new layout is a lot easier when the keycaps match I'd suggest learning a new layout is easier on an entirely different keyboard, so as to minimize confusing the fingers' motor memory. > who only knows qwerty has to use your computer for whatever reason they can still hunt and peck vs it being completely impossible. Hunting for keys on an unfamiliar layout is impractical. In my experience, just switch the layout from Dvorak to US International, if you're using Dvorak and someone else wants to use your laptop.
  - Taywee 3y ago
    Learning to touch type any layout, either when first learning to type or learning a new layout, is seriously hampered by ever looking at your hands. You should use a layout chart and navigate the keyboard by touch. There's a reason that most actual typing education uses blank keyboards or keyboard covers that hide the letter printings. If somebody who only knows qwerty uses your computer, you should switch the keymap to qwerty for them, not force them to try to navigate an unfamiliar layout. Every major OS makes it very easy to switch keymaps.
- rgoulter 3y ago
  > which is a really bad idea on many keyboards, with cap angle differing by row Even when keycaps have uniform profile, the 'F' and 'J' keycaps will often have bumps on them. These are the 'homing keys', so that it's easier for the fingers to return to home row.
tekla 3y ago
The Laptop is devoted to hackers, not hipsters.
- wiml 3y ago
  The hipsters are probably using Colemak.
barrkel 3y ago
I use blank keycaps on my mechanical keyboard for my Dvorak layout: https://www.keyboardco.com/product/blank-black-filco-104-key-keyset-pack.asp https://www.keyboardco.com/product/blank-black-filco-104-key... I also don't see the point of printing Dvorak layout. You use Dvorak to speed up your touch typing, and reduce fatigue.
- babypuncher 3y ago
  I touch-type, but it is still handy having accurate printing on the key caps when entering key combinations. It's also incredibly helpful for anyone learning a new keyboard layout.
  - yellowapple 3y ago
    Also, if anyone (who doesn't already use Dvorak) has the misfortune of needing to use your computer with its Dvorak layout, that misfortune is amplified by many orders of magnitude if there's no visual indication of which keys are which.
segasaturn 3y ago
Use blank keycaps then. Dvorak is for touch typing so you shouldn't be looking at your keys in the first place ;)
lawn 3y ago
> Is this for hackers or not? A real hacker uses blank keys.
- yellowapple 3y ago
  A real hacker twiddles the data lines on a USB port manually instead of bothering with luser-friendly crap like keyboards.
- nrp 3y ago
  We've got that one covered: https://frame.work/products/input-cover-kit-blank?v=FRANFC000A https://frame.work/products/input-cover-kit-blank?v=FRANFC00...
  - aksss 3y ago
    Well there you go.. bonus: you can paint/apply your own Dvorak layout labels in whatever font you choose.
sowbug 3y ago
There is some irony in wanting hardware built "for hackers." Hackers use things in spite of their intended purposes.
G3rn0ti 3y ago
Grüezi! Luxembourg is rich, too, and does not even have its own keyboard layout. Deal with it! ;-) And if you prefer Dvorak why not go for „clear iso“? And what’s up with you people hating „ß“ so much, anyways. Best regards, a neighbor

by column 3y ago

Entinel 3y ago

> Also, no DVORAK? Is this for hackers or not? I can't imagine they would sell enough DVORAK layout to make it worth it.

Taywee 3y ago

As a long time Dvorak user, I'm always baffled by people wanting visual Dvorak layouts and physically rearranging their keycaps (which is a really bad idea on many keyboards, with cap angle differing by row). Dvorak really speeds up touch typing (edit: hypothetically, or at least makes it more comfortable). If you're looking at your hands while typing, just use qwerty. Dvorak won't help you. You can use Dvorak regardless of what letters are printed on the keycaps.

cge 3y ago
For some reason, typing non-word-phrase passwords, especially unfamiliar ones, on a keyboard without being able to see the correct keycaps often seems challenging, even though I can touch type very well for text and for programming. It feels like there is some aspect of typing something that requires a character-by-character rational thought process to type that interrupts an instinctive memory of where each character is located. With that said, having Dvorak keys on my laptop would make the keyboard unusable or very difficult to use for a large number of other people, and so even if one were offered, I'd be unlikely to buy it. Even for many people who touch type well, I think having keycaps that are wrong when one does glance at them is something that takes some experience to get used to, and a Dvorak user typically has that experience, whereas a Qwerty user usually doesn't.
pr0zac 3y ago
I mean yeah, but learning a new layout is a lot easier when the keycaps match. Also if someone who only knows qwerty has to use your computer for whatever reason they can still hunt and peck vs it being completely impossible.
- rgoulter 3y ago
  > but learning a new layout is a lot easier when the keycaps match I'd suggest learning a new layout is easier on an entirely different keyboard, so as to minimize confusing the fingers' motor memory. > who only knows qwerty has to use your computer for whatever reason they can still hunt and peck vs it being completely impossible. Hunting for keys on an unfamiliar layout is impractical. In my experience, just switch the layout from Dvorak to US International, if you're using Dvorak and someone else wants to use your laptop.
- Taywee 3y ago
  Learning to touch type any layout, either when first learning to type or learning a new layout, is seriously hampered by ever looking at your hands. You should use a layout chart and navigate the keyboard by touch. There's a reason that most actual typing education uses blank keyboards or keyboard covers that hide the letter printings. If somebody who only knows qwerty uses your computer, you should switch the keymap to qwerty for them, not force them to try to navigate an unfamiliar layout. Every major OS makes it very easy to switch keymaps.
rgoulter 3y ago
> which is a really bad idea on many keyboards, with cap angle differing by row Even when keycaps have uniform profile, the 'F' and 'J' keycaps will often have bumps on them. These are the 'homing keys', so that it's easier for the fingers to return to home row.

tekla 3y ago

The Laptop is devoted to hackers, not hipsters.

wiml 3y ago
The hipsters are probably using Colemak.

barrkel 3y ago

I use blank keycaps on my mechanical keyboard for my Dvorak layout: https://www.keyboardco.com/product/blank-black-filco-104-key-keyset-pack.asp https://www.keyboardco.com/product/blank-black-filco-104-key... I also don't see the point of printing Dvorak layout. You use Dvorak to speed up your touch typing, and reduce fatigue.

babypuncher 3y ago
I touch-type, but it is still handy having accurate printing on the key caps when entering key combinations. It's also incredibly helpful for anyone learning a new keyboard layout.
- yellowapple 3y ago
  Also, if anyone (who doesn't already use Dvorak) has the misfortune of needing to use your computer with its Dvorak layout, that misfortune is amplified by many orders of magnitude if there's no visual indication of which keys are which.

segasaturn 3y ago

Use blank keycaps then. Dvorak is for touch typing so you shouldn't be looking at your keys in the first place ;)

lawn 3y ago

> Is this for hackers or not? A real hacker uses blank keys.

yellowapple 3y ago
A real hacker twiddles the data lines on a USB port manually instead of bothering with luser-friendly crap like keyboards.
nrp 3y ago
We've got that one covered: https://frame.work/products/input-cover-kit-blank?v=FRANFC000A https://frame.work/products/input-cover-kit-blank?v=FRANFC00...
- aksss 3y ago
  Well there you go.. bonus: you can paint/apply your own Dvorak layout labels in whatever font you choose.

sowbug 3y ago

There is some irony in wanting hardware built "for hackers." Hackers use things in spite of their intended purposes.

G3rn0ti 3y ago

Grüezi! Luxembourg is rich, too, and does not even have its own keyboard layout. Deal with it! ;-) And if you prefer Dvorak why not go for „clear iso“? And what’s up with you people hating „ß“ so much, anyways. Best regards, a neighbor