6 ms·

I suspect VSCode is a baited hook. Get enough developers dependent on it, then degrade it on Linux, and offer WSL as close enough to have people switch their OS

by kps 3y ago

I suspect VSCode is a baited hook. Get enough developers dependent on it, then degrade it on Linux, and offer WSL as close enough to have people switch their OS rather than their editor. With developers on Windows, cloud follows.

weberer 3y ago
They've already been doing this with Teams. Their native Linux client has less features, like screen blurring, or being able to view more than 4 users at a time. Thankfully you can get around this by using the web version, but who knows how long it will be until they do some user-agent shenanigans to mess with you again.
- HeavyStorm 3y ago
  That's not a strategy to damage Linux users at all, it's just that main focus for apps is windows, then probably apple, then Linux. Also, MS devs are much more versed in windows.
- dathinab 3y ago
  Their native linux client is an outdated version of their web client using a outdated version of electron (I think it was electron), i.e. it's not native do not use it, use the browser.
anaganisk 3y ago
WSL is a literal VM now, that runs based on Hyper-V afaik, if Vscode degrades on Linux, I'm just not sure how it won't affect WSL too. Whatever happened to using vim,emacs, intelliJ, or tons of other Vscode forks. Vscode is not the baited hook, it's the exclusive integrations (extensions) like remote containers, remote containers etc that are nice to have features not workflow breaking stuff.
- eptcyka 3y ago
  VSCode runs well on host and just uses SSH to have a remote Dev env in the Linux VM. At this point, a MS advocate might argue that we don't even need vscode to run on Linux at all. I think their next push won't be against Foss people, but to get people on the cloud so they get a recurring revenue stream and their customers are hooked deeper still.
  - anaganisk 3y ago
    Probably works in the US, but their biggest user bases will just switch to another editor. The user bases are coders from China, India and other developing nations. You have no idea how religiously people hate paid/recurring subscription software over there.
  - dathinab 3y ago
    > VSCode runs well on host and just uses SSH to have a remote Dev env in the Linux VM. At this point, a MS advocate might argue that we don't even need vscode to run on Linux at all. Intellij has been doing that since years. Including extensive language specific integrations to e.g. make remote python debugging nicer. > I think their next push won't be against Foss people, but to get people on the cloud so they get a recurring revenue stream and their customers are hooked deeper still. I agree, something something GitHub cloud editor. But that's perfect. Perfect for selling Chrome Books instead of Windows machines, as they are cheaper, less maintenance cost and often more secure...
scrollaway 3y ago
Linux desktop is such small fish to Microsoft it would be ridiculous for them to focus on it as competitor right now. If experience gets degraded it’s because of limited testing, not malicious intent. It’s like Oracle suddenly deciding that their greatest competitor is sqlite. The two live in different worlds.
- kps 3y ago
  It's not about developer machines, it's about servers. There are are a lot of people who want to run the same OS, and even the same processor architecture, on their development and deployment machines. (I've almost always worked in a cross-compilation world, so this doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but whenever the topic of ARM or RISC-V machines comes up here, it gets a lot of attention.)
  - martinald 3y ago
    But loads of people develop on Windows and deploy on Linux. I would say that is the 'default' approach now for even Microsoft .net core apps; given how supported docker is, and the docker containers run linux?
- dathinab 3y ago
  it's not about weather linux desktop is an issue or serious competition it's about making sure it can't become one even if MS starts doing things which harm customer (accidentally and/or due to customers being dependent on them). For example look at the steam deck, even with it's success it's neglible small compared to Switch, PS and Xbox, but it still implicitly forced Microsoft to start working on better support in their "windows manager/desktop US" for this kind of devices. Or they would love to force their app store for apps like Apple did on Mobile, they tried getting there before. But now they can't really threaten Valve that well anymore because Valve can always argue: See gaming on Linux works without us strongly doubling down on it because you forced us. And there are people invested in Steam due to having large libraries, if most of their library works on SteamOs but Steam works no longer on Windows where would they go...?
dathinab 3y ago
If they try this it will likely fail very hard, because one of the selling point of it is that it's a thin IDE. But this means most vscode users can easily switch away, e.g. to sublime. Sure there is the plugin ecosystem, but at least how plugins work currently you don't want to install many of them for security reasons/trust. And in my experience some of the best plugins are not only not from MS but they provide features vscode already roughly supports but in a lacking way. MS might have some luck with remote dev features (which are also not in the open source version). But they will have a hard time on this vector, because I have seen upcomming new IDEs which do handles that better in ways I'm not sure vscode will be able to beat or get on-par with. This leave their remote in-browser IDE dev setup thingy in colaboration with GitHub, that is a killer feature. But IMHO is one of this things which only will become a main selling point if people _only_ use this environment. But it's a in-browser interface so not OS specific so probably not so useful to lock people in.

by kps 3y ago

weberer 3y ago

They've already been doing this with Teams. Their native Linux client has less features, like screen blurring, or being able to view more than 4 users at a time. Thankfully you can get around this by using the web version, but who knows how long it will be until they do some user-agent shenanigans to mess with you again.

HeavyStorm 3y ago
That's not a strategy to damage Linux users at all, it's just that main focus for apps is windows, then probably apple, then Linux. Also, MS devs are much more versed in windows.
dathinab 3y ago
Their native linux client is an outdated version of their web client using a outdated version of electron (I think it was electron), i.e. it's not native do not use it, use the browser.

anaganisk 3y ago

WSL is a literal VM now, that runs based on Hyper-V afaik, if Vscode degrades on Linux, I'm just not sure how it won't affect WSL too. Whatever happened to using vim,emacs, intelliJ, or tons of other Vscode forks. Vscode is not the baited hook, it's the exclusive integrations (extensions) like remote containers, remote containers etc that are nice to have features not workflow breaking stuff.

eptcyka 3y ago
VSCode runs well on host and just uses SSH to have a remote Dev env in the Linux VM. At this point, a MS advocate might argue that we don't even need vscode to run on Linux at all. I think their next push won't be against Foss people, but to get people on the cloud so they get a recurring revenue stream and their customers are hooked deeper still.
- anaganisk 3y ago
  Probably works in the US, but their biggest user bases will just switch to another editor. The user bases are coders from China, India and other developing nations. You have no idea how religiously people hate paid/recurring subscription software over there.
- dathinab 3y ago
  > VSCode runs well on host and just uses SSH to have a remote Dev env in the Linux VM. At this point, a MS advocate might argue that we don't even need vscode to run on Linux at all. Intellij has been doing that since years. Including extensive language specific integrations to e.g. make remote python debugging nicer. > I think their next push won't be against Foss people, but to get people on the cloud so they get a recurring revenue stream and their customers are hooked deeper still. I agree, something something GitHub cloud editor. But that's perfect. Perfect for selling Chrome Books instead of Windows machines, as they are cheaper, less maintenance cost and often more secure...

scrollaway 3y ago

Linux desktop is such small fish to Microsoft it would be ridiculous for them to focus on it as competitor right now. If experience gets degraded it’s because of limited testing, not malicious intent. It’s like Oracle suddenly deciding that their greatest competitor is sqlite. The two live in different worlds.

kps 3y ago
It's not about developer machines, it's about servers. There are are a lot of people who want to run the same OS, and even the same processor architecture, on their development and deployment machines. (I've almost always worked in a cross-compilation world, so this doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but whenever the topic of ARM or RISC-V machines comes up here, it gets a lot of attention.)
- martinald 3y ago
  But loads of people develop on Windows and deploy on Linux. I would say that is the 'default' approach now for even Microsoft .net core apps; given how supported docker is, and the docker containers run linux?
dathinab 3y ago
it's not about weather linux desktop is an issue or serious competition it's about making sure it can't become one even if MS starts doing things which harm customer (accidentally and/or due to customers being dependent on them). For example look at the steam deck, even with it's success it's neglible small compared to Switch, PS and Xbox, but it still implicitly forced Microsoft to start working on better support in their "windows manager/desktop US" for this kind of devices. Or they would love to force their app store for apps like Apple did on Mobile, they tried getting there before. But now they can't really threaten Valve that well anymore because Valve can always argue: See gaming on Linux works without us strongly doubling down on it because you forced us. And there are people invested in Steam due to having large libraries, if most of their library works on SteamOs but Steam works no longer on Windows where would they go...?

dathinab 3y ago

If they try this it will likely fail very hard, because one of the selling point of it is that it's a thin IDE. But this means most vscode users can easily switch away, e.g. to sublime. Sure there is the plugin ecosystem, but at least how plugins work currently you don't want to install many of them for security reasons/trust. And in my experience some of the best plugins are not only not from MS but they provide features vscode already roughly supports but in a lacking way. MS might have some luck with remote dev features (which are also not in the open source version). But they will have a hard time on this vector, because I have seen upcomming new IDEs which do handles that better in ways I'm not sure vscode will be able to beat or get on-par with. This leave their remote in-browser IDE dev setup thingy in colaboration with GitHub, that is a killer feature. But IMHO is one of this things which only will become a main selling point if people _only_ use this environment. But it's a in-browser interface so not OS specific so probably not so useful to lock people in.