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How many game engines run on top of SVG? How many games target SVG as their graphics pipeline? How many applications, for that matter? The comparison to PDF

How many game engines run on top of SVG? How many games target SVG as their graphics pipeline? How many applications, for that matter? The comparison to PDF was better than you probably realize. PDF is Turing complete, and there have been ray-tracers implemented in it.

javajosh 3y ago
Oh the comparison to PDF was perfect. PDF and Metal have the same recent ancestry with postscript. What ugly prejudices so many people on this thread seem to have. And how trivial and nonsensical. All I said was she should not have omitted svg in her history of graphics apis since she's writing an article about browser graphics. To deny that svg is a part of that, or that people don't program to it... well, I was going to write "ridiculous" but the xkcd about people who don't know things comes to mind...is it possible you just don't know that so many people make things with SVG? In any event, it seems I've touched a nerve that I didn't want to, and I find it ugly, and this is my free time, so I'm leaving the convo. Peace.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  > ...article about browser graphics Despite the name, WebGPU isn't limited to browsers, I think the article sort-of implies that without explicitly pointing it out (until late into the article). Instead WebGPU has a good chance to become the 'missing link' standard cross-platform 3D API that sits above D3D12, Metal and Vulkan and at the same time is relatively straightforward to use for mere mortals.
- pjc50 3y ago
  > it seems I've touched a nerve that I didn't want to, and I find it ugly Well, yes, but you can see how your original comment may have been read as dismissive of other people's work?
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Not only that, his comments are factually incorrect, while glibly dismissing a well written factually correct article as untrustworthy, based on his incorrect assumption that his incorrect facts imply her true facts are false. "So one should take it with a grain of salt." Sheez. How rude.
- dahart 3y ago
  > All I said was she should have not omitted SVG in her history of graphics APIs since she’s writing an article about browser graphics. To deny that SVG is a part of that You are continuing to double down on a straw man, which is why you’re getting all the push-back. The ugliness is ugliness you’ve single-handedly created because this is not an article about the history of browser graphics. It would have included SVG if that were the case, but it’s not, and you’re making assertions that aren’t warranted or justified here. This was an article about GPU APIs. Canvas was only mentioned briefly off-hand in passing twice, and the history of Canvas was not discussed at all, nor was the history of browser development. Nobody denied that SVG is part of anything, you are projecting your off-topic wishes onto a discussion where SVG simply does not belong, it’s tangential and not relevant to the article. It’s not relevant here how many people make things with SVG. SVG is great. I wish development for SVG2 hadn’t stalled out, I would like to see SVG2 become broadly supported, there are some new options for dynamic scaling I’ve wanted to use for ten years. That said, this is a completely separate topic from the article & thread. You could get your SVG fix by submitting an article to HN that’s actually discussing SVG rather than trying to hijack the comment thread on an article about GPUs.
- overgard 3y ago
  She omitted it because it's not an API, it's a file format. Even if you want to be lax about what you call an API, svg was never a competitor in this space. She also left out canvas, directdraw, direct2d, gdi, etc, because they're just not relevant to any of this.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  In what sense is Metal descendent from PostScript? The comparison is anything but perfect: they're practically polar opposites. Metal isn't a text based programming language like PostScript, and it has a completely different graphics model. PostScript isn't pixel oriented, or 3d oriented, and Metal doesn't have a stencil/paint graphics model or text rendering. They're totally different things, by totally different people and organizations. Metal uses SPIR-V binary byte code, which is nothing like PostScript, a stack based high level polymorphic cross between Lisp or Forth, and a descendent of Interpres, JaM, and Design System. As programming languages go, and as imaging models go, PostScript and Metal are at completely different ends of the spectrum. SVG, like PDF, is the PostScript stencil/paint imaging mode, without the Turing complete programming language, but expressed as XML, with some CSS thrown in. And some implementation of SVG even let you define event handlers in JavaScript, but Metal sure doesn't let you do that. And to top it off, SVG is "object oriented" (i.e. a DOM) while Metal is "immediate mode" (i.e. an API). They couldn't be more different. Since your facts are wrong, and you're throwing around insults like "ugly prejudices" and "trivial and nonsensical" and "ridiculous" and "people who don't know things" and "I've touched a nerve" and "I find it ugly", then it's a good thing that you're "leaving the convo", because you haven't contributed anything but misinformation and insults. More about PostScript and its history: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21968175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21968175
  - astrange 3y ago
    > Metal uses SPIR-V binary byte code It certainly doesn't, except that they're both LLVM based. As the article says, Apple can't use anything from Khronos.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      That's right, I was mistaken. The point I was trying to make is that compiled shader languages are very unlike dynamically interpreted PostScript, which is much more like Lisp or Smalltalk than C or C++.
cprecioso 3y ago
Not wanting to disregard your pint, but there are definitely applications in SVG. The user interface for the most famous kitchen “robot” (Thermomix) is done entirely in SVG, and they (through open source consultants Igalia) are one of the most important contributors to SVG and Canvas functionality in WebKit. https://blogs.igalia.com/nzimmermann/posts/2021-10-29-layer-based-svg-engine/ https://blogs.igalia.com/nzimmermann/posts/2021-10-29-layer-...
- sph 3y ago
  > Not wanting to disregard your pint Please leave my drink alone. :-(
DonHopkins 3y ago
I think you're confusing PDF with PostScript. The whole point of PDF was to remove the Turing completeness from PostScript. PostScript ray tracer: https://gist.github.com/grkvlt/2651230 https://gist.github.com/grkvlt/2651230
- VikingCoder 3y ago
  Ahhah, I sit corrected! Thank you.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  > Don't send this one to a printer. It will take too long Damn, and here I was going to send it to my LaserWriter IINT!

javajosh 3y ago

Oh the comparison to PDF was perfect. PDF and Metal have the same recent ancestry with postscript. What ugly prejudices so many people on this thread seem to have. And how trivial and nonsensical. All I said was she should not have omitted svg in her history of graphics apis since she's writing an article about browser graphics. To deny that svg is a part of that, or that people don't program to it... well, I was going to write "ridiculous" but the xkcd about people who don't know things comes to mind...is it possible you just don't know that so many people make things with SVG? In any event, it seems I've touched a nerve that I didn't want to, and I find it ugly, and this is my free time, so I'm leaving the convo. Peace.

flohofwoe 3y ago
> ...article about browser graphics Despite the name, WebGPU isn't limited to browsers, I think the article sort-of implies that without explicitly pointing it out (until late into the article). Instead WebGPU has a good chance to become the 'missing link' standard cross-platform 3D API that sits above D3D12, Metal and Vulkan and at the same time is relatively straightforward to use for mere mortals.
pjc50 3y ago
> it seems I've touched a nerve that I didn't want to, and I find it ugly Well, yes, but you can see how your original comment may have been read as dismissive of other people's work?
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Not only that, his comments are factually incorrect, while glibly dismissing a well written factually correct article as untrustworthy, based on his incorrect assumption that his incorrect facts imply her true facts are false. "So one should take it with a grain of salt." Sheez. How rude.
dahart 3y ago
> All I said was she should have not omitted SVG in her history of graphics APIs since she’s writing an article about browser graphics. To deny that SVG is a part of that You are continuing to double down on a straw man, which is why you’re getting all the push-back. The ugliness is ugliness you’ve single-handedly created because this is not an article about the history of browser graphics. It would have included SVG if that were the case, but it’s not, and you’re making assertions that aren’t warranted or justified here. This was an article about GPU APIs. Canvas was only mentioned briefly off-hand in passing twice, and the history of Canvas was not discussed at all, nor was the history of browser development. Nobody denied that SVG is part of anything, you are projecting your off-topic wishes onto a discussion where SVG simply does not belong, it’s tangential and not relevant to the article. It’s not relevant here how many people make things with SVG. SVG is great. I wish development for SVG2 hadn’t stalled out, I would like to see SVG2 become broadly supported, there are some new options for dynamic scaling I’ve wanted to use for ten years. That said, this is a completely separate topic from the article & thread. You could get your SVG fix by submitting an article to HN that’s actually discussing SVG rather than trying to hijack the comment thread on an article about GPUs.
overgard 3y ago
She omitted it because it's not an API, it's a file format. Even if you want to be lax about what you call an API, svg was never a competitor in this space. She also left out canvas, directdraw, direct2d, gdi, etc, because they're just not relevant to any of this.
DonHopkins 3y ago
In what sense is Metal descendent from PostScript? The comparison is anything but perfect: they're practically polar opposites. Metal isn't a text based programming language like PostScript, and it has a completely different graphics model. PostScript isn't pixel oriented, or 3d oriented, and Metal doesn't have a stencil/paint graphics model or text rendering. They're totally different things, by totally different people and organizations. Metal uses SPIR-V binary byte code, which is nothing like PostScript, a stack based high level polymorphic cross between Lisp or Forth, and a descendent of Interpres, JaM, and Design System. As programming languages go, and as imaging models go, PostScript and Metal are at completely different ends of the spectrum. SVG, like PDF, is the PostScript stencil/paint imaging mode, without the Turing complete programming language, but expressed as XML, with some CSS thrown in. And some implementation of SVG even let you define event handlers in JavaScript, but Metal sure doesn't let you do that. And to top it off, SVG is "object oriented" (i.e. a DOM) while Metal is "immediate mode" (i.e. an API). They couldn't be more different. Since your facts are wrong, and you're throwing around insults like "ugly prejudices" and "trivial and nonsensical" and "ridiculous" and "people who don't know things" and "I've touched a nerve" and "I find it ugly", then it's a good thing that you're "leaving the convo", because you haven't contributed anything but misinformation and insults. More about PostScript and its history: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21968175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21968175
- astrange 3y ago
  > Metal uses SPIR-V binary byte code It certainly doesn't, except that they're both LLVM based. As the article says, Apple can't use anything from Khronos.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    That's right, I was mistaken. The point I was trying to make is that compiled shader languages are very unlike dynamically interpreted PostScript, which is much more like Lisp or Smalltalk than C or C++.

cprecioso 3y ago

Not wanting to disregard your pint, but there are definitely applications in SVG. The user interface for the most famous kitchen “robot” (Thermomix) is done entirely in SVG, and they (through open source consultants Igalia) are one of the most important contributors to SVG and Canvas functionality in WebKit. https://blogs.igalia.com/nzimmermann/posts/2021-10-29-layer-based-svg-engine/ https://blogs.igalia.com/nzimmermann/posts/2021-10-29-layer-...

sph 3y ago
> Not wanting to disregard your pint Please leave my drink alone. :-(

DonHopkins 3y ago

I think you're confusing PDF with PostScript. The whole point of PDF was to remove the Turing completeness from PostScript. PostScript ray tracer: https://gist.github.com/grkvlt/2651230 https://gist.github.com/grkvlt/2651230

VikingCoder 3y ago
Ahhah, I sit corrected! Thank you.
kalleboo 3y ago
> Don't send this one to a printer. It will take too long Damn, and here I was going to send it to my LaserWriter IINT!