3 ms·

I don't want to carry any phone, among other reasons because I do not want to be tracked 24/7. Now Apple has made it trivial for anyone to buy persistent, high

I don't want to carry any phone, among other reasons because I do not want to be tracked 24/7. Now Apple has made it trivial for anyone to buy persistent, highly accurate dystopian stalker gear that could easily be surreptitiously placed on my person or vehicle. Having no phone, I would have no idea. The AirTag tracking system escalates the technological arms race and dramatically expands my threat model. All I want is the right to be a human with my human dignity respected, without requiring "techno upgrades" to enforce my rights, and the best response I've seen from the pro-surveillance crowd boils down to, "well you've gotta carry a tracking device if you don't want to get tracked". Unacceptable.

HWR_14 3y ago
First, you can totally carry a phone in airplane mode or a tablet without cellular capabilities. Or you can scan with a tablet from a known location (e.g. the office) and regularly do so. Second, the threat model isn't new. Tiles have had the same capability for a long time. GPS trackers that use cellular to report your location are about as big as an AirTag (although more expensive). But finally, this is something a lot of people want to have. We need laws to punish their misuse, but ultimately banning them would impact other people's rights.
- kyboren 3y ago
  So we're back to, "carry a tracking device if you don't want to get tracked." Even if I had a phone, or could afford one, then I will still be carrying a tracking device. Do you really think airplane mode will prevent tracking? Apple's AirTag fuckery works even when devices present as in the "off" state! And of course there's no longer any easy way to remove phone batteries now. I don't want to be tracked by the AirTag snitch network, I don't want to be tracked by a phone carried to prevent AirTag tracking, and finally I don't want to and should not have to carry any tech in order to ensure my safety and rights. > Second, the threat model isn't new. Tiles have had the same capability for a long time. GPS trackers that use cellular to report your location are about as big as an AirTag (although more expensive). It is new. Those devices are bigger and use way more power. AirTags turn everyone's iPhone into an automated snitch reporting the precise location of these ultra-low-power beacons. It's an escalation of the technological arms race. But you're right, these tracking devices should all be prohibited items for commercial sale. > But finally, this is something a lot of people want to have. We need laws to punish their misuse, but ultimately banning them would impact other people's rights. Laws like those can't prevent misuse, they can only punish, maybe, after misuse. Of course, the violation must be detected first ("buy our tracking products if you don't want to get tracked"). And at which point it's potentially too late for the victim, anyway. Banning easily-concealable low-power global mesh network snitch devices would not impact other people's rights except to protect them. Where do you get the idea that you have some right to these devices that balances with my right to safety, human dignity, and privacy? Regulation of commercial products is absolutely par for the course, especially when those products can have such severe negative externalities for people who aren't the users of the products. A lot of people want cheap, easy access to machine guns. At least in the US, unlike easily-concealable tracking devices we actually do have a right to bear arms--and yet machine guns are not so trivial to obtain. Why is that?
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    I respect your desire not to be tracked. But you are just wrong about a lot of the technology you are talking about. AirTags can be read using Apple software for either Apple or Google hardware, you don't have to opt into Apple's ecosystem at all. Airplane mode prevents tracking by carriers the most passive method and what most people object to when they call phones tracking devices. It of course also prevents any other methods (e.g. GPS) from calling home. Apple AirTag-like tracking of iDevices (while off) only works on newer iDevices that have a special BLE chip that runs in the "off" state and that behavior is easily disabled from the settings menu, so it can be disabled when your device is off or always. Between those two settings, you can set any Apple device into something that does not transmit anything about you. This 100% answers your "I don't want to be tracked by a phone carried to prevent AirTag tracking" As for " I don't want to and should not have to carry any tech", you may not want to have any kind of technology, and that's your right, but it does seem like a trivial burden. The number of things like parking that seems to require a phone is growing. While I dislike that as a societal arc, this is within that arc. You don't seem to know what a Tile is. It's the same thing as an AirTag released for a similar price point years ago that is similar in size. The difference is, only phones that opted into downloading the Tile software scanned for and reported them to home base. But it was a fairly complete network with all the same tracking concerns. Meanwhile, GPS receivers with 4G transmitters are under $30 on Amazon with the same physical footprint as an AirTag. Those devices are no longer bigger or significantly more power hungry than AirTags. But of course, they also make ones designed to be wired into a vehicle for power, which would last longer than the 10 month (nominal) battery life I found. And GPS avoids the "scanning with a phone" detection. Meanwhile, you seem to ignore the use cases that many people have for finding keys or their own property. Yes, you don't want to be tracked. But I own things and I want to track them. So do companies. Outlawing trackers imposes a very large cost on them. Meanwhile, detecting malicious trackers is easy enough that it doesn't seem to impose a cost on everyone else. And, of course, people would be far less concerned about anyone owning a machine-gun if there was an app you could run on your phone that would prevent the bullets from hurting you.
    - kyboren 3y ago
      > it can be disabled when your device is off If you trust Apple's software, and the firmware of every discrete SoC/IP core to be truthful and bug-free. And obviously this does not require cellular tracking, which is frankly unlikely to be prevented in airplane mode. Once again, regardless of your justifications: I refuse to carry a tracking device, so stop arguing that I should because "It'll totally be fine, trust me bro." > Tile and GPS receivers with 4G transmitters I'm aware of Tile and the physical and power footprint of other trackers. The AirTag is a substantial leap in capability. If you disagree: Why do so many people prefer AirTag over Tile or these other devices? But again: All these surreptitious trackers should be banned from commercial sale. The risks far outweigh the benefits, and the risks are entirely externalized to the rest of society. > The number of things like parking that seems to require a phone is growing. While I dislike that as a societal arc, this is within that arc. So, just straight up, "Fuck your human dignity. Carry a tracking device or GTFO and forget your right to a normal life in society." Human rights are apparently not important to you; I should just bend over and accept my lot, because that's the "societal arc". Once again: Unacceptable. And moreover: A miserable and weaselly dismissal not only of my human dignity but also of your own. > Yes, you don't want to be tracked. But I own things and I want to track them. So do companies. Outlawing trackers imposes a very large cost on them. I disagree with that frankly ridiculous characterization. Legal surreptitious trackers impose a very large cost to other members of society. But this entire issue would go away overnight if Apple designed their system only to detect and find lost items instead of as a generalized surreptitious global tracking system. Simply only report beacons back to the mothership if the user of the tracking device (the "phone") has previously manually added the tracking device ("AirTag"). Allow up to 10 devices to add an AirTag, so everyone in your family/friend group can help find your lost property. No more snitching back to Apple when the tracking device sees any beacon at all. This will satisfy the vast majority of use cases where you lose a physical possession ("where are my keys?") while preventing the vast majority of stalking and targeted muggings, rape, and burglaries, etc.

HWR_14 3y ago

First, you can totally carry a phone in airplane mode or a tablet without cellular capabilities. Or you can scan with a tablet from a known location (e.g. the office) and regularly do so. Second, the threat model isn't new. Tiles have had the same capability for a long time. GPS trackers that use cellular to report your location are about as big as an AirTag (although more expensive). But finally, this is something a lot of people want to have. We need laws to punish their misuse, but ultimately banning them would impact other people's rights.

kyboren 3y ago
So we're back to, "carry a tracking device if you don't want to get tracked." Even if I had a phone, or could afford one, then I will still be carrying a tracking device. Do you really think airplane mode will prevent tracking? Apple's AirTag fuckery works even when devices present as in the "off" state! And of course there's no longer any easy way to remove phone batteries now. I don't want to be tracked by the AirTag snitch network, I don't want to be tracked by a phone carried to prevent AirTag tracking, and finally I don't want to and should not have to carry any tech in order to ensure my safety and rights. > Second, the threat model isn't new. Tiles have had the same capability for a long time. GPS trackers that use cellular to report your location are about as big as an AirTag (although more expensive). It is new. Those devices are bigger and use way more power. AirTags turn everyone's iPhone into an automated snitch reporting the precise location of these ultra-low-power beacons. It's an escalation of the technological arms race. But you're right, these tracking devices should all be prohibited items for commercial sale. > But finally, this is something a lot of people want to have. We need laws to punish their misuse, but ultimately banning them would impact other people's rights. Laws like those can't prevent misuse, they can only punish, maybe, after misuse. Of course, the violation must be detected first ("buy our tracking products if you don't want to get tracked"). And at which point it's potentially too late for the victim, anyway. Banning easily-concealable low-power global mesh network snitch devices would not impact other people's rights except to protect them. Where do you get the idea that you have some right to these devices that balances with my right to safety, human dignity, and privacy? Regulation of commercial products is absolutely par for the course, especially when those products can have such severe negative externalities for people who aren't the users of the products. A lot of people want cheap, easy access to machine guns. At least in the US, unlike easily-concealable tracking devices we actually do have a right to bear arms--and yet machine guns are not so trivial to obtain. Why is that?
- HWR_14 3y ago
  I respect your desire not to be tracked. But you are just wrong about a lot of the technology you are talking about. AirTags can be read using Apple software for either Apple or Google hardware, you don't have to opt into Apple's ecosystem at all. Airplane mode prevents tracking by carriers the most passive method and what most people object to when they call phones tracking devices. It of course also prevents any other methods (e.g. GPS) from calling home. Apple AirTag-like tracking of iDevices (while off) only works on newer iDevices that have a special BLE chip that runs in the "off" state and that behavior is easily disabled from the settings menu, so it can be disabled when your device is off or always. Between those two settings, you can set any Apple device into something that does not transmit anything about you. This 100% answers your "I don't want to be tracked by a phone carried to prevent AirTag tracking" As for " I don't want to and should not have to carry any tech", you may not want to have any kind of technology, and that's your right, but it does seem like a trivial burden. The number of things like parking that seems to require a phone is growing. While I dislike that as a societal arc, this is within that arc. You don't seem to know what a Tile is. It's the same thing as an AirTag released for a similar price point years ago that is similar in size. The difference is, only phones that opted into downloading the Tile software scanned for and reported them to home base. But it was a fairly complete network with all the same tracking concerns. Meanwhile, GPS receivers with 4G transmitters are under $30 on Amazon with the same physical footprint as an AirTag. Those devices are no longer bigger or significantly more power hungry than AirTags. But of course, they also make ones designed to be wired into a vehicle for power, which would last longer than the 10 month (nominal) battery life I found. And GPS avoids the "scanning with a phone" detection. Meanwhile, you seem to ignore the use cases that many people have for finding keys or their own property. Yes, you don't want to be tracked. But I own things and I want to track them. So do companies. Outlawing trackers imposes a very large cost on them. Meanwhile, detecting malicious trackers is easy enough that it doesn't seem to impose a cost on everyone else. And, of course, people would be far less concerned about anyone owning a machine-gun if there was an app you could run on your phone that would prevent the bullets from hurting you.
  - kyboren 3y ago
    > it can be disabled when your device is off If you trust Apple's software, and the firmware of every discrete SoC/IP core to be truthful and bug-free. And obviously this does not require cellular tracking, which is frankly unlikely to be prevented in airplane mode. Once again, regardless of your justifications: I refuse to carry a tracking device, so stop arguing that I should because "It'll totally be fine, trust me bro." > Tile and GPS receivers with 4G transmitters I'm aware of Tile and the physical and power footprint of other trackers. The AirTag is a substantial leap in capability. If you disagree: Why do so many people prefer AirTag over Tile or these other devices? But again: All these surreptitious trackers should be banned from commercial sale. The risks far outweigh the benefits, and the risks are entirely externalized to the rest of society. > The number of things like parking that seems to require a phone is growing. While I dislike that as a societal arc, this is within that arc. So, just straight up, "Fuck your human dignity. Carry a tracking device or GTFO and forget your right to a normal life in society." Human rights are apparently not important to you; I should just bend over and accept my lot, because that's the "societal arc". Once again: Unacceptable. And moreover: A miserable and weaselly dismissal not only of my human dignity but also of your own. > Yes, you don't want to be tracked. But I own things and I want to track them. So do companies. Outlawing trackers imposes a very large cost on them. I disagree with that frankly ridiculous characterization. Legal surreptitious trackers impose a very large cost to other members of society. But this entire issue would go away overnight if Apple designed their system only to detect and find lost items instead of as a generalized surreptitious global tracking system. Simply only report beacons back to the mothership if the user of the tracking device (the "phone") has previously manually added the tracking device ("AirTag"). Allow up to 10 devices to add an AirTag, so everyone in your family/friend group can help find your lost property. No more snitching back to Apple when the tracking device sees any beacon at all. This will satisfy the vast majority of use cases where you lose a physical possession ("where are my keys?") while preventing the vast majority of stalking and targeted muggings, rape, and burglaries, etc.