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Why would tech workers pay miners to strike (Lets ignore the insane difficulty of organising that for now)? Making hardware more expensive, directly and negati

Why would tech workers pay miners to strike (Lets ignore the insane difficulty of organising that for now)? Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers. Software devs benefit from cheaper hardware, in the same way car companies benefit from cheaper oil. Car workers don't get paid better because oil prices go up, they get laid off. Also, most rare earth minerals are mined in China, China does not look kindly to foreign 'interference', such as labour organisation.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
I'd happily earn less knowing that the people working in literal mines to support my success felt less soul destroyed.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  Yes, there are altruistic reasons too. I'd like to say the same for myself, but it's not like I've put in the effort to find out how to actually help such people--and presumably those ways exist. But it even makes sense according to a colder, less human logic (which, regrettably, is often what matters). Like maybe I want to pressure the makers of a VR headset into letting me root it so that I can prevent it from streaming biometrics to the vendor. If I can delay the release of the latest headset versionin a way that causes the news about the delay to focus on how poorly certain workers are treated, I can later threaten to do it again if they don't give me what I want.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  How much less? 10% 50% 80%?
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    That would depend on my absolute income and my overall situation at any given time, just like the tax I pay to support society in my own country.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jtr1 3y ago
This is an interesting idea. I honestly hadn’t considered that we could contribute to strike funds in these countries. Seems like a thing worth organizing
- zdragnar 3y ago
  I believe there are some Nigerian princes who would be willing to help you set up such a fund.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  I feel like a network of that sort would have applications all over the place. Perhaps this is a petty example, but whenever I'm asked to input a tip in a place where tipping isn't appropriate (like a drive-through fast-food restaurant), I'd like to tip $0.05 as a hint that I've contributed $5 to their strike fund (which they could use an app to later verify).
  - UncleEntity 3y ago
    Why not just boycott the places with abusive labor practices instead of some convoluted scheme that only signals your virtuous nature to the exploited employees. You know, like back in the day when people boycotted goods produced in Apartheid South Africa. Today, unless there’s an app for that…
    - heavyset_go 3y ago
      Abusive labor practices are the norm in the food industry.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      It's not about virtue signaling, do you think that giving them strings-attached money is going to make them like me? It's kind of a jerk move. It's about establishing communication directly with the workers so that you can circumvent potentially corrupt unions. As for general purpose boycotts, I don't think they're as effective as they used to be. Modern supply chains are too convoluted. It's easy to see somebody doing something that you don't like and engage with them directly about how you can help them stop. Mapping an evil to a change in your spending habits that prevents it... I'm sure there are cases where that's still possible, but I don't think it's the majority of them.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Well it wouldn't be any old mine, it would be chosen in a way that deferentially impacts the operations of the company that you want to harm. Yeah, it's a negative sum game, but that's how threats usually work. Even though it might hurt their hand, people sometime punch other people if they're convinced that it'll hurt their target more than it hurts them. Income disparity would also be part of the calculation: 1) If there are V people with W average income each willing to pay X% of their their income to support Y other people while they strike and forgo their income of Z, then maybe you get more disruption for your buck by targeting part of the supply chain in a country where wages are lower. 2) If you're looking to make your target look scummy, targeting a more direct dependency might not be the right thing. You'd want to be funding a strike that should've happened anyway if only the people could afford it, not one that isn't justified. As for the "China does not look kindly" thing... don't get caught? We're disrupting here, of course we're going to upset people. That's the point.
- anonylizard 3y ago
  Lets just say you need to understand a bit more about the difficulties about 'organizing people' You are sounding like those businessmen who think building a facebook or programmer just requires hiring some contracted programmer for a few months. And organizing people across national/linguistic borders is instantly 10x harder. Across long causality chains, 1000x harder. Its like trying to build an app that can run on hardware from the 90s to modern iOS to windows XP. The only company on the planet that can do that is Palantir, and they aren't very profitable.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    I'm not saying I can pull it off, I'm just saying that "solidarity between these groups will never happen" is hard to justify. We've only been doing this whole widespread-global-communication thing for a few decades, who knows what'll happen in the next few.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
> Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers. Global solidarity has more benefits than drawbacks. Plus strikes only last so long, then if successful the workers get better pay. But this is unlikely to lead to higher hardware costs - instead it will just be lower profits for the capital owners. The cost of raw materials is not determined by labor costs, but by global markets - owners just collect the difference between costs and prices for themselves.
heavyset_go 3y ago
> Why would tech workers pay miners to strike (Lets ignore the insane difficulty of organizing that for now)? Why would anyone donate to help anyone else? I've contributed to strike and organized labor funds because it can help others improve and make meaningful changes in their lives. > Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers. I doubt many people are pro-miner brutality and exploitation because it might make electronics a bit cheaper.
RugnirViking 3y ago
> Software devs benefit from cheaper hardware No they don't? For a start hardware is a miniscule cost at most software companies, but even asides from that, its not like programmers would be paid more if that cost was lower. They are paid exactly as little as the boss can get away with. If the company you or I work for literally doubled its profits we'd walk away with like a small bonus at most, maybe some small improvement in options if you're lucky enough to get those

AlecSchueler 3y ago

I'd happily earn less knowing that the people working in literal mines to support my success felt less soul destroyed.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Yes, there are altruistic reasons too. I'd like to say the same for myself, but it's not like I've put in the effort to find out how to actually help such people--and presumably those ways exist. But it even makes sense according to a colder, less human logic (which, regrettably, is often what matters). Like maybe I want to pressure the makers of a VR headset into letting me root it so that I can prevent it from streaming biometrics to the vendor. If I can delay the release of the latest headset versionin a way that causes the news about the delay to focus on how poorly certain workers are treated, I can later threaten to do it again if they don't give me what I want.
ipaddr 3y ago
How much less? 10% 50% 80%?
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  That would depend on my absolute income and my overall situation at any given time, just like the tax I pay to support society in my own country.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jtr1 3y ago

This is an interesting idea. I honestly hadn’t considered that we could contribute to strike funds in these countries. Seems like a thing worth organizing

zdragnar 3y ago
I believe there are some Nigerian princes who would be willing to help you set up such a fund.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
I feel like a network of that sort would have applications all over the place. Perhaps this is a petty example, but whenever I'm asked to input a tip in a place where tipping isn't appropriate (like a drive-through fast-food restaurant), I'd like to tip $0.05 as a hint that I've contributed $5 to their strike fund (which they could use an app to later verify).
- UncleEntity 3y ago
  Why not just boycott the places with abusive labor practices instead of some convoluted scheme that only signals your virtuous nature to the exploited employees. You know, like back in the day when people boycotted goods produced in Apartheid South Africa. Today, unless there’s an app for that…
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    Abusive labor practices are the norm in the food industry.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    It's not about virtue signaling, do you think that giving them strings-attached money is going to make them like me? It's kind of a jerk move. It's about establishing communication directly with the workers so that you can circumvent potentially corrupt unions. As for general purpose boycotts, I don't think they're as effective as they used to be. Modern supply chains are too convoluted. It's easy to see somebody doing something that you don't like and engage with them directly about how you can help them stop. Mapping an evil to a change in your spending habits that prevents it... I'm sure there are cases where that's still possible, but I don't think it's the majority of them.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

Well it wouldn't be any old mine, it would be chosen in a way that deferentially impacts the operations of the company that you want to harm. Yeah, it's a negative sum game, but that's how threats usually work. Even though it might hurt their hand, people sometime punch other people if they're convinced that it'll hurt their target more than it hurts them. Income disparity would also be part of the calculation: 1) If there are V people with W average income each willing to pay X% of their their income to support Y other people while they strike and forgo their income of Z, then maybe you get more disruption for your buck by targeting part of the supply chain in a country where wages are lower. 2) If you're looking to make your target look scummy, targeting a more direct dependency might not be the right thing. You'd want to be funding a strike that should've happened anyway if only the people could afford it, not one that isn't justified. As for the "China does not look kindly" thing... don't get caught? We're disrupting here, of course we're going to upset people. That's the point.

anonylizard 3y ago
Lets just say you need to understand a bit more about the difficulties about 'organizing people' You are sounding like those businessmen who think building a facebook or programmer just requires hiring some contracted programmer for a few months. And organizing people across national/linguistic borders is instantly 10x harder. Across long causality chains, 1000x harder. Its like trying to build an app that can run on hardware from the 90s to modern iOS to windows XP. The only company on the planet that can do that is Palantir, and they aren't very profitable.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  I'm not saying I can pull it off, I'm just saying that "solidarity between these groups will never happen" is hard to justify. We've only been doing this whole widespread-global-communication thing for a few decades, who knows what'll happen in the next few.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

> Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers. Global solidarity has more benefits than drawbacks. Plus strikes only last so long, then if successful the workers get better pay. But this is unlikely to lead to higher hardware costs - instead it will just be lower profits for the capital owners. The cost of raw materials is not determined by labor costs, but by global markets - owners just collect the difference between costs and prices for themselves.

heavyset_go 3y ago

> Why would tech workers pay miners to strike (Lets ignore the insane difficulty of organizing that for now)? Why would anyone donate to help anyone else? I've contributed to strike and organized labor funds because it can help others improve and make meaningful changes in their lives. > Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers. I doubt many people are pro-miner brutality and exploitation because it might make electronics a bit cheaper.

RugnirViking 3y ago

> Software devs benefit from cheaper hardware No they don't? For a start hardware is a miniscule cost at most software companies, but even asides from that, its not like programmers would be paid more if that cost was lower. They are paid exactly as little as the boss can get away with. If the company you or I work for literally doubled its profits we'd walk away with like a small bonus at most, maybe some small improvement in options if you're lucky enough to get those