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Yeah, they have quite a sad understanding of their bargaining power. 1. Their job easily replaceable by any english speaking, high school educated worker on a

Yeah, they have quite a sad understanding of their bargaining power. 1. Their job easily replaceable by any english speaking, high school educated worker on a planetary level. 2. There is almost no capital expenditure to setup a 'moderation centre', just setup a bunch of computers in an office and you are done. So workers don't have leverage over a company that is unwilling to move. 3. AI will annihilate probably 80% of the offshore call center business in a few years, the workers laid off from call centers, can 1-1 slot into these AI-RL training jobs. Heck AI will also annihilate 80% of those offshore moderation jobs for say facebook. So more competition. Frankly, the AI companies doesn't even need to move to another country, they can just hire non-unionized workers in those same african countries. When they will do this, depends on when the union asks for too high of a wage. The most optimistic outcome, is the unions try to work with the AI companies in asking for better conditions, but not neccessarily much better wages. Overplay their hand and they will fail.

yawboakye 3y ago
[flagged]
digdigdag 3y ago
1. These jobs are situated in Africa for the precise reason that other usual outsourcing countries have become increasingly expensive and prohibitive for this type of work. These workers are exposed to the most vile things the human mind can produce and they do it for starvation wages day in and day out. 2. Their leverage is their sanity and willingness to be able to be exposed to unconscionable content. Many places in the world would categorically block this kind of gig simply for being damaging to the mind, and rightly so. And even in countries where this work is permissible, it would otherwise expose the company to future liability in terms of emotional trauma. 3. This 80% figure is a number fabricated from thin air. These workers don't work in call centers. They are content moderators in some shape or form -- a job that requires not just reading comprehension but being able to weigh certain current events, cultural queues, unspoken and spoken language, and other data that you can't magically feed into a machine. S
- anonylizard 3y ago
  These workers are not slaves, they are free to work anywhere else. If moderating posts on a computer really is worse than say working at a farm, or a a clothing factory, then the workers would leave. They don't work in call centers of course. But the workers who currently work in call centers, can swoop in and compete for their jobs. I can tell you that plenty of people on HN, would rather deal with moderating awful content, than to talk to endless waves of people who can't read 3 step instructions. And I would prefer either compared to say diving in sewage. If you don't think GPT-4 can replace offshore call centers very rapidly, then you need to talk to those companies that do employ them. Onshore call centers handle more complex stuff that is harder to outsource, offshore ones not so much.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    The workers could leave. Or they could unionize and attempt to improve their employment conditions. Maybe it will work. Maybe the company will fire them and replace them with other workers. But I have to imagine that the workers’ own assessment of their leverage is more accurate than someone on the other side of the world who read an article headline. And it would appear that at least some of them, based on that assessment have decided to give unionizing a shot.
tysam_and 3y ago
I'm not sure if saying "quite a sad understanding" is really an appropriate or deserved response in this scenario. Like anything, there's a lot more beneath the surface. Many white collar folx tend to entirely write off Africa and other third world countries and misunderstand some of the dynamics there. Yes, of course there will be a decrease in demand, that does not make unionization bad. You also seem to underestimate the ability for African people to band together into collective movements. Yes there will be scabs, of course, but this is a step forward in the fight. I do find myself feeling frustrated when someone approaches the comment section on a journey that has taken technical workers _several years_ through the courts system and then offers a dismissal that seems to suggest that the problem could be solved if they thought of it differently or didn't realize how shortsighted they were. I do hope Africa is able to follow through on its ambitions to have serious punching weight in the global sphere, all problems aside. It is a beautiful continent with many beautiful cultures in it. It certainly feels a bit like a kind of home for me.
- anonylizard 3y ago
  It is true that Africans can band together in movements, that's how they forced Europeans out. It also true, those 'collective movements' don't necessarily result in good outcomes. Look at Kenya on the map. To the east is Somalia, to the north is Ethiopia, South Sudan, Sudan, all countries locked in civil war between different 'collective movements'. The big opportunity for Africa in the AI era, is to use AIs to serve local healthcare/education/software development needs. There weren't many teachers/doctors/SE engineers etc to begin with, so they have little to lose from mass deploying AI. I'm not sure unionising to get higher wages from moderation work will make a big impact. I am really curious to see the counterargument here, why will unionisation work in this case?
  - tysam_and 3y ago
    I can't claim expertise on Africa, something I would add though is that many Africans from Kenya, for example, that I've talked to, generally blame British imperialism for many of the problems today. Because they drew country borders willy-nilly around tribes, sometimes even splitting tribes between countries, and culturally the tribes only vote for their own, the countries are ruled by majority tribes which become the rich and leading class. Ethiopia has this problem too for example. Then tribalism + continued tensions just keep going from there. Of course there is the rampant corruption. There are also collective community policing strategies too in some communities, for example. In the African Union I have high hopes for the continent, but still I think there is a a very large, very large, very large barrier to overcome because of the infighting. As far as the unionization, I think if handled right it can have lower downsides for the amount of bargaining power that it provides. It seems that a lot of African culture thrives on ad-hoc person-to-person movements, so this feels very much within the lines of what could work in Africa. But tribalism inside of each country and between countries could still keep any local movements from having a larger impact within the continent even if, say, a local union is successful. In any case, it basically moves the Nash Equilibrium but doesn't necessarily abolish it. If handled poorly, or if the company retaliates, then sure, if the company is willing to run the press gauntlet and such. But at the very least, I have hopes. Also I know of the conflict in Somalia, Ethiopia, South & North Sudan, etc. I haven't checked in on Kenya in a while. I hope all is well over there, it is generally a very beautiful and safe country with a few notable exceptions. Has something happened, or is it in the list mainly due to proximity to the conflict (or something like that?) :'( </3
_fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
> 3. AI will annihilate probably 80% of the offshore call center business in a few years, the workers laid off from call centers, can 1-1 slot into these AI-RL training jobs. Heck AI will also annihilate 80% of those offshore moderation jobs for say facebook. So more competition. I am dreading that day. Most often when calling a business I need someone to fix something and often it can only be fixed by someone that can make a decision that is kind of "outside of the rules". AI will be trained to always stick to the rules, so I foresee an even more frustrating call center future.
- _0ffh 3y ago
  My experience is that in big companies people stick just as much to the rules (or "processes") as any LLM would. You wouldn't want to know how often sensible and straightforward requests get obstructed because "there's no process for that".
- int_19h 3y ago
  The present flock of LLMs is not exactly good at that whole "stick to the rules" thing beyond surface compliance. GPT-4 was touted as a significant improvement in that regard, but 1) it was jailbroken within days, and 2) most of the methods used to do so still work today.

yawboakye 3y ago

[flagged]

digdigdag 3y ago

1. These jobs are situated in Africa for the precise reason that other usual outsourcing countries have become increasingly expensive and prohibitive for this type of work. These workers are exposed to the most vile things the human mind can produce and they do it for starvation wages day in and day out. 2. Their leverage is their sanity and willingness to be able to be exposed to unconscionable content. Many places in the world would categorically block this kind of gig simply for being damaging to the mind, and rightly so. And even in countries where this work is permissible, it would otherwise expose the company to future liability in terms of emotional trauma. 3. This 80% figure is a number fabricated from thin air. These workers don't work in call centers. They are content moderators in some shape or form -- a job that requires not just reading comprehension but being able to weigh certain current events, cultural queues, unspoken and spoken language, and other data that you can't magically feed into a machine. S

anonylizard 3y ago
These workers are not slaves, they are free to work anywhere else. If moderating posts on a computer really is worse than say working at a farm, or a a clothing factory, then the workers would leave. They don't work in call centers of course. But the workers who currently work in call centers, can swoop in and compete for their jobs. I can tell you that plenty of people on HN, would rather deal with moderating awful content, than to talk to endless waves of people who can't read 3 step instructions. And I would prefer either compared to say diving in sewage. If you don't think GPT-4 can replace offshore call centers very rapidly, then you need to talk to those companies that do employ them. Onshore call centers handle more complex stuff that is harder to outsource, offshore ones not so much.
- zztop44 3y ago
  The workers could leave. Or they could unionize and attempt to improve their employment conditions. Maybe it will work. Maybe the company will fire them and replace them with other workers. But I have to imagine that the workers’ own assessment of their leverage is more accurate than someone on the other side of the world who read an article headline. And it would appear that at least some of them, based on that assessment have decided to give unionizing a shot.

tysam_and 3y ago

I'm not sure if saying "quite a sad understanding" is really an appropriate or deserved response in this scenario. Like anything, there's a lot more beneath the surface. Many white collar folx tend to entirely write off Africa and other third world countries and misunderstand some of the dynamics there. Yes, of course there will be a decrease in demand, that does not make unionization bad. You also seem to underestimate the ability for African people to band together into collective movements. Yes there will be scabs, of course, but this is a step forward in the fight. I do find myself feeling frustrated when someone approaches the comment section on a journey that has taken technical workers _several years_ through the courts system and then offers a dismissal that seems to suggest that the problem could be solved if they thought of it differently or didn't realize how shortsighted they were. I do hope Africa is able to follow through on its ambitions to have serious punching weight in the global sphere, all problems aside. It is a beautiful continent with many beautiful cultures in it. It certainly feels a bit like a kind of home for me.

anonylizard 3y ago
It is true that Africans can band together in movements, that's how they forced Europeans out. It also true, those 'collective movements' don't necessarily result in good outcomes. Look at Kenya on the map. To the east is Somalia, to the north is Ethiopia, South Sudan, Sudan, all countries locked in civil war between different 'collective movements'. The big opportunity for Africa in the AI era, is to use AIs to serve local healthcare/education/software development needs. There weren't many teachers/doctors/SE engineers etc to begin with, so they have little to lose from mass deploying AI. I'm not sure unionising to get higher wages from moderation work will make a big impact. I am really curious to see the counterargument here, why will unionisation work in this case?
- tysam_and 3y ago
  I can't claim expertise on Africa, something I would add though is that many Africans from Kenya, for example, that I've talked to, generally blame British imperialism for many of the problems today. Because they drew country borders willy-nilly around tribes, sometimes even splitting tribes between countries, and culturally the tribes only vote for their own, the countries are ruled by majority tribes which become the rich and leading class. Ethiopia has this problem too for example. Then tribalism + continued tensions just keep going from there. Of course there is the rampant corruption. There are also collective community policing strategies too in some communities, for example. In the African Union I have high hopes for the continent, but still I think there is a a very large, very large, very large barrier to overcome because of the infighting. As far as the unionization, I think if handled right it can have lower downsides for the amount of bargaining power that it provides. It seems that a lot of African culture thrives on ad-hoc person-to-person movements, so this feels very much within the lines of what could work in Africa. But tribalism inside of each country and between countries could still keep any local movements from having a larger impact within the continent even if, say, a local union is successful. In any case, it basically moves the Nash Equilibrium but doesn't necessarily abolish it. If handled poorly, or if the company retaliates, then sure, if the company is willing to run the press gauntlet and such. But at the very least, I have hopes. Also I know of the conflict in Somalia, Ethiopia, South & North Sudan, etc. I haven't checked in on Kenya in a while. I hope all is well over there, it is generally a very beautiful and safe country with a few notable exceptions. Has something happened, or is it in the list mainly due to proximity to the conflict (or something like that?) :'( </3

_fizz_buzz_ 3y ago

> 3. AI will annihilate probably 80% of the offshore call center business in a few years, the workers laid off from call centers, can 1-1 slot into these AI-RL training jobs. Heck AI will also annihilate 80% of those offshore moderation jobs for say facebook. So more competition. I am dreading that day. Most often when calling a business I need someone to fix something and often it can only be fixed by someone that can make a decision that is kind of "outside of the rules". AI will be trained to always stick to the rules, so I foresee an even more frustrating call center future.

_0ffh 3y ago
My experience is that in big companies people stick just as much to the rules (or "processes") as any LLM would. You wouldn't want to know how often sensible and straightforward requests get obstructed because "there's no process for that".
int_19h 3y ago
The present flock of LLMs is not exactly good at that whole "stick to the rules" thing beyond surface compliance. GPT-4 was touted as a significant improvement in that regard, but 1) it was jailbroken within days, and 2) most of the methods used to do so still work today.