6 ms·

Broadly speaking, the computers should do the work to free up humans to do the important things like parenting and teaching. Letting the machine babysit our ki

Broadly speaking, the computers should do the work to free up humans to do the important things like parenting and teaching. Letting the machine babysit our kids so we can... what? Do work that a computer could do? Party all day? Why are teachers so poorly paid?

mlyle 3y ago
You know, maybe we can do both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem Individual tutoring plus mastery (which Khan already has) outperforms classrooms by 2 sigma. Coming up with ways that we can individualize education which we can afford (since we're not going to buy individual tutorial education for every child) would be huge. Next year, I'm helping a group of ELA teachers use GPT4 to provide each student with individualized writing feedback. We have a relatively low student to teacher ratio, but still we can only provide this kind of depth 3-4 times per year, and now we're going to get it a couple times more. And in the microeconomics class I taught, I enjoyed the efficiency and educational aspects of having about a quarter of my assignments be on Khan. Exercises are self-grading; students get immediate feedback; and if students need extra help, it's there... with Sal Khan explaining things radically different from how I did. (I like my explanations better, but anyone who didn't click with things my way had a chance to try something different).
- carapace 3y ago
  > outperforms classrooms by 2 sigma ...by what metrics? Anyway, who cares? Why do kids need an education, let alone one that has sigmas, in a world where talking machines can outperform them in every area? What are people for? (That's a Wendell Berry essay, also I'm asking.) I maintain that the robots should do the work so that people can e.g. teach their own kids. Education should be more than a means to secure a position in the economic/social order. (An order that seems poised for some sort of upheaval.)
  - mlyle 3y ago
    > ...by what metrics? The Wikipedia article is linked right there. > in a world where talking machines can outperform them in every area? Seems unlikely for awhile, except perhaps as a self-fulfilling prophecy. > I maintain that the robots should do the work It sure would be nice if robots could like, unclog toilets and clean, instead of usurping creative work. > so that people can e.g. teach their own kids Some people are really well equipped for this, in knowledge, temperament, and ability. Others, ehh..
    - carapace 3y ago
      > The Wikipedia article is linked right there. Yeah, thanks. It says "a knowledge test"...? Anyway, this Bloom is clearly a crank: > Mastery learning is an educational philosophy first proposed by Bloom in 1968[8] based on the premise that students must achieve a level of mastery (e.g., 90% on a knowledge test) in prerequisite knowledge before moving forward to learn subsequent information on a topic. That's not how brains work. No wonder the educational system is so pathetic, eh? I recall when "points" were introduced in school, and even as a kid I could recognize that this was a serious degradation of educational philosophy and technique. >> in a world where talking machines can outperform them in every area? > Seems unlikely for awhile It's already happening. Jobs are evaporating. Opportunities for gainful employment are withering under the glare of the LLMs as we speak. I just checked Craigslist and there are no jobs for me there anymore. > It sure would be nice if robots could like, unclog toilets and clean, instead of usurping creative work. Yeah, that's my whole point here: "Let the robots do the work and we'll take their pay." People talking about robot judges and robot teachers, etc., are putting the cart before the horse. I remember when Sony made that dancing robot and I was like, "Damn it, I like to dance! Make a robot that does the #$@% dishes!" >> so that people can e.g. teach their own kids > Some people are really well equipped for this, in knowledge, temperament, and ability. Others, ehh.. "It takes a village...", eh? The "unit" of human is not the individual, or even the nuclear family or extended family. It's the village/neighborhood. Teaching kids to be adults is not exactly the hardest thing to do? We managed it for about a million years before we ever even lived in towns.
      - 3y ago
rahimnathwani 3y ago
The average SAT score across all students (not just those who got into college) is ~1060. The average SAT score across all people entering teaching colleges is ~1060. When considering whether public school teachers are underpaid on average, and comparing their pay to that in other roles: 1. consider that they work for only 38 weeks per year (instead of 50) 2. consider that in many states, teachers are entitled to defined-benefit pensions and post-retirement healthcare 3. compare pay to other professions with similar entry standards (i.e. what other professions have average SAT scores of 1060). #1 is equivalent to a pay increase of ~30% #2 is equivalent to a pay increase of ~45% So, take the base salary, multiply it by 1.89 (1.3*1.45), and then compare it to non-government jobs that you can get with similar academic performance.
- mlyle 3y ago
  I'm not sure this is a fair comparison on many levels. Especially since you're valuing #2 very highly; it is worth 45% to very few educators. (I suspect you're ignoring time value of money or the fact that teachers generally have to contribute to these defined benefit plans). You're also ignoring credentialing, continuing education, and total education requirements. In my case, I work 40 weeks a year. I work at a private school and just have a 403(b) plan which has less favorable matching and vesting than most 401(k) plans. My total comp is well under 10% of what I could make in private industry. It's not exactly easier work to do well, either. In this area (SF Bay Area), it's not really a living wage unless you have a spouse that can subsidize you. In the end, the low comp is causing a lot of teachers to self-select out of the profession, and it's a reason why we have a teacher shortage. If the pay were as ample as you suggest, this would not be happening. An equally big reason is the low social status and often-poor working conditions of teachers. The public spends boatloads on education, but in the public sector, a bigger and bigger administrative class and dubious, administrative-driven spending gobbles it up.
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    Thanks for sharing some details of your situation. Before I provide a more substantive reply, I want to point out this line from my comment: When considering whether public school teachers are underpaid on average I was talking specifically about public school teachers, so what I wrote was definitely not meant to apply to your situation. > you're valuing #2 very highly; it is worth 45% to very few educators Take a look at this page of actual salaries for SFUSD, and actual total pay and benefits for SFUSD teachers: https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=Eld%20Classroom%20Teacher&y=2020 https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=Eld%20C... Total pay is 43% to 153% higher than base pay. The average % is 55%. I'm not cherry picking. I just picked a job role that people think is underpaid (elementary school teacher), and looked at the first page of results. > In the end, the low comp is causing a lot of teachers to self-select out of the profession, and it's a reason why we have a teacher shortage. You're probably right about this. But I suspect this causes the most capable people to leave (or just never consider entering) the profession. I'm in favour of both raising the bar for teachers, and paying them more to attract people who can meet that bar. Unfortunately, it seems like districts and unions are unwilling to hold teachers to account[0]. (Yes, I know districts have many other failings that are more severe than this.) > You're also ignoring credentialing, continuing education > and total education requirements. Honestly I'm skeptical of the value of some of the stuff required for teachers to become and stay credentialed. And teaching is far from the only job that requires continuing education. > My total comp is well under 10% of what I could make in private industry. This is really interesting. Do you mind me asking how you look at this decision? e.g. why not take the job paying 10x what you make now, and use some of the excess money to help students in other ways? Or take a part-time job paying 5x, and volunteer the rest of the time? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22

mlyle 3y ago

You know, maybe we can do both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem Individual tutoring plus mastery (which Khan already has) outperforms classrooms by 2 sigma. Coming up with ways that we can individualize education which we can afford (since we're not going to buy individual tutorial education for every child) would be huge. Next year, I'm helping a group of ELA teachers use GPT4 to provide each student with individualized writing feedback. We have a relatively low student to teacher ratio, but still we can only provide this kind of depth 3-4 times per year, and now we're going to get it a couple times more. And in the microeconomics class I taught, I enjoyed the efficiency and educational aspects of having about a quarter of my assignments be on Khan. Exercises are self-grading; students get immediate feedback; and if students need extra help, it's there... with Sal Khan explaining things radically different from how I did. (I like my explanations better, but anyone who didn't click with things my way had a chance to try something different).

carapace 3y ago
> outperforms classrooms by 2 sigma ...by what metrics? Anyway, who cares? Why do kids need an education, let alone one that has sigmas, in a world where talking machines can outperform them in every area? What are people for? (That's a Wendell Berry essay, also I'm asking.) I maintain that the robots should do the work so that people can e.g. teach their own kids. Education should be more than a means to secure a position in the economic/social order. (An order that seems poised for some sort of upheaval.)
- mlyle 3y ago
  > ...by what metrics? The Wikipedia article is linked right there. > in a world where talking machines can outperform them in every area? Seems unlikely for awhile, except perhaps as a self-fulfilling prophecy. > I maintain that the robots should do the work It sure would be nice if robots could like, unclog toilets and clean, instead of usurping creative work. > so that people can e.g. teach their own kids Some people are really well equipped for this, in knowledge, temperament, and ability. Others, ehh..
  - carapace 3y ago
    > The Wikipedia article is linked right there. Yeah, thanks. It says "a knowledge test"...? Anyway, this Bloom is clearly a crank: > Mastery learning is an educational philosophy first proposed by Bloom in 1968[8] based on the premise that students must achieve a level of mastery (e.g., 90% on a knowledge test) in prerequisite knowledge before moving forward to learn subsequent information on a topic. That's not how brains work. No wonder the educational system is so pathetic, eh? I recall when "points" were introduced in school, and even as a kid I could recognize that this was a serious degradation of educational philosophy and technique. >> in a world where talking machines can outperform them in every area? > Seems unlikely for awhile It's already happening. Jobs are evaporating. Opportunities for gainful employment are withering under the glare of the LLMs as we speak. I just checked Craigslist and there are no jobs for me there anymore. > It sure would be nice if robots could like, unclog toilets and clean, instead of usurping creative work. Yeah, that's my whole point here: "Let the robots do the work and we'll take their pay." People talking about robot judges and robot teachers, etc., are putting the cart before the horse. I remember when Sony made that dancing robot and I was like, "Damn it, I like to dance! Make a robot that does the #$@% dishes!" >> so that people can e.g. teach their own kids > Some people are really well equipped for this, in knowledge, temperament, and ability. Others, ehh.. "It takes a village...", eh? The "unit" of human is not the individual, or even the nuclear family or extended family. It's the village/neighborhood. Teaching kids to be adults is not exactly the hardest thing to do? We managed it for about a million years before we ever even lived in towns.
    - 3y ago

rahimnathwani 3y ago

The average SAT score across all students (not just those who got into college) is ~1060. The average SAT score across all people entering teaching colleges is ~1060. When considering whether public school teachers are underpaid on average, and comparing their pay to that in other roles: 1. consider that they work for only 38 weeks per year (instead of 50) 2. consider that in many states, teachers are entitled to defined-benefit pensions and post-retirement healthcare 3. compare pay to other professions with similar entry standards (i.e. what other professions have average SAT scores of 1060). #1 is equivalent to a pay increase of ~30% #2 is equivalent to a pay increase of ~45% So, take the base salary, multiply it by 1.89 (1.3*1.45), and then compare it to non-government jobs that you can get with similar academic performance.

mlyle 3y ago
I'm not sure this is a fair comparison on many levels. Especially since you're valuing #2 very highly; it is worth 45% to very few educators. (I suspect you're ignoring time value of money or the fact that teachers generally have to contribute to these defined benefit plans). You're also ignoring credentialing, continuing education, and total education requirements. In my case, I work 40 weeks a year. I work at a private school and just have a 403(b) plan which has less favorable matching and vesting than most 401(k) plans. My total comp is well under 10% of what I could make in private industry. It's not exactly easier work to do well, either. In this area (SF Bay Area), it's not really a living wage unless you have a spouse that can subsidize you. In the end, the low comp is causing a lot of teachers to self-select out of the profession, and it's a reason why we have a teacher shortage. If the pay were as ample as you suggest, this would not be happening. An equally big reason is the low social status and often-poor working conditions of teachers. The public spends boatloads on education, but in the public sector, a bigger and bigger administrative class and dubious, administrative-driven spending gobbles it up.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing some details of your situation. Before I provide a more substantive reply, I want to point out this line from my comment: When considering whether public school teachers are underpaid on average I was talking specifically about public school teachers, so what I wrote was definitely not meant to apply to your situation. > you're valuing #2 very highly; it is worth 45% to very few educators Take a look at this page of actual salaries for SFUSD, and actual total pay and benefits for SFUSD teachers: https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=Eld%20Classroom%20Teacher&y=2020 https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=Eld%20C... Total pay is 43% to 153% higher than base pay. The average % is 55%. I'm not cherry picking. I just picked a job role that people think is underpaid (elementary school teacher), and looked at the first page of results. > In the end, the low comp is causing a lot of teachers to self-select out of the profession, and it's a reason why we have a teacher shortage. You're probably right about this. But I suspect this causes the most capable people to leave (or just never consider entering) the profession. I'm in favour of both raising the bar for teachers, and paying them more to attract people who can meet that bar. Unfortunately, it seems like districts and unions are unwilling to hold teachers to account[0]. (Yes, I know districts have many other failings that are more severe than this.) > You're also ignoring credentialing, continuing education > and total education requirements. Honestly I'm skeptical of the value of some of the stuff required for teachers to become and stay credentialed. And teaching is far from the only job that requires continuing education. > My total comp is well under 10% of what I could make in private industry. This is really interesting. Do you mind me asking how you look at this decision? e.g. why not take the job paying 10x what you make now, and use some of the excess money to help students in other ways? Or take a part-time job paying 5x, and volunteer the rest of the time? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22