3 ms·

These are luxuries, not mandatories. That's why many people don't get them. They can't. I absolutely can't.

dingusdew 4y ago
They are only that way because our society treats them as luxuries instead of baseline "these are needed to properly take care of yourself." Apparently only the rich deserve things like this, according to US society. You know, rich folks like Steve Jobs who definitely listen to their doctors and their support networks and definitely don't fall for quacky bullshit that means they die from a totally manageable type of cancer.
t-writescode 4y ago
I have to disagree. That Western Society has systemically chosen to redefine them as luxuries and has forced its residents to treat them as luxuries, rather than the obligation for a healthy human experience that they are is a major source of the harm we experience every day. We need to return to considering and treating them as the mandatories that they are or else we will continue to experience the cost of neglecting them, just like neglecting Vitamin C results in scurvy.
ianlevesque 4y ago
No, no, everything is a personal failing. Pull yourself up by those bootstraps. What externalities?
jimbob45 4y ago
Couldn't agree more. Seems like a lot of people on here think that low-income earners eat off of the McD's dollar menu by choice.
- t-writescode 4y ago
  I absolutely don't think that. I think that company owners, share holders, "The Economy" have decided that low earners don't deserve healthy lives; and that many of those low earners have been tricked into agreeing that it's best to live "under foot" and that those things are luxuries. It would be like cheering a factory on for all the missing arms its employees have, and then having all the factory employees mock the newcommers with two arms trying to protest losing an arm only to have the tenured ones laugh at them and think that's privilege. We've brainwashed generations of self and systemic harm
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  Beans, rice, eggs and oats are cheaper, healthier and quicker than Mcdonalds. (Rice is not quicker). If McDonals were the only choice they wouldn't be spending millions on advertising.
  - t-writescode 4y ago
    They're also more emotionally taxing to create, and come with several externalities that aren't baked in to the price of the dollar menu: * dish washing (do they even have dishes?) * power usage of stove * time to clean up * a singular, large lump of time to go out and buy all those food * the necessary mental spoons to plan those numerous meals each week * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken, for example) * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks And so on
    - Jtsummers 4y ago
      * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken, for example) Other than eggs, and this is in the US not all countries, you don't need a refrigerator for the listed items. Beans, rice, and oats do not require refrigeration. Many fruits and vegetables also don't need refrigeration [0]. * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks This is mitigated by learning what does and does not need to be refrigerated and storing things properly. [0] https://extension.purdue.edu/foodlink/includes/pubs/Storing%20Fruits%20and%20Veggies.pdf https://extension.purdue.edu/foodlink/includes/pubs/Storing%...
acabal 4y ago
I think it's important to note that they're luxuries in the modern society we've built for ourselves in the West. Long, long ago, small communities without access to high-speed travel provided social support; no cars and little white-collar work means exercise was baked into life with much walking and manual labor; diet was mostly unprocessed food farmed nearby; and no screens or even electricity meant sleep well before midnight till dawn. Of course, there were plenty of problems back then, too - I'm not saying it was an idyllic utopia. But in our modern life, it seems like we've just traded one set of problems for another.
teaearlgraycold 4y ago
I understand this is probably an uncomfortable topic, but I’d love to hear more from you on this.
algoatecorn 4y ago
If you put diet, exercise, sleep, and social support on a sliding scale, can you honestly say that you're doing everything in your power to maximize each one? I don't know your personal details, but most people who think this way are not actually trying their hardest in each category. Sure, some small percentage is going to face monumental challenges. But look at the data in the US for example. 70% of our deaths are caused by NCDs. Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits
- t-writescode 4y ago
  > Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits And yet they don't, so it suggests to me that "it's not that simple". It's better to imagine that people _are_ doing what they can and it's still not enough, so rather than victim blaming, we can discover what's actually going on in these people's lives that's stopping their ability to reach it. Are they so downtrodden that it's not worth the effort anymore? Are they actually working 2-3 jobs and 100 hours of unexpected time a week so they literally don't have time? Do they live so far away from work because they can't afford to live close such that all their time is spent commuting and they have no extra time anymore?
  - algoatecorn 4y ago
    Let's be intellectually honest here. It's not victim blaming to point out that "can't" isn't reasonable language. Life is hard. Doesn't mean we "can't" have some control over these variables. As I said, there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they don't represent the bulk of scenarios.
    - t-writescode 4y ago
      > there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they don't represent the bulk of scenarios. You say this, but you also say, "Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits" 70% and "most of 70%" are still either a majority or at the very least a plurality; so, I have to strongly disagree that they don't represent the bulk of the scenarios. Is your argument that most people are lazy and should suck it up and get over it and fix themselves?
landryraccoon 4y ago
Good food I can see as a luxury. How is exercise a luxury though? It seems like going for a walk or a run is available to almost everyone. If anything it seems like those on the lower income level would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more than the wealthy.
- t-writescode 4y ago
  > would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more I have no citation, but I believe most low-income jobs in the US involve: * standing for long, long hours and not moving (cashiers) * sitting for long, long hours and not moving (call centers)
xenospn 4y ago
Is someone holding a gun to your head and preventing you from eating fruits and vegetables?
wyldberry 4y ago
They are not luxuries. Modern society has just made it easy to neglect these things for various reasons. The lies we tell ourselves about it not mandatory until you burn out or need medical intervention. Modern medicine will provide various interventions to help out such as trying to balance your brain chemistry, lowering obesity, blood pressure, etc. Many of the things prescribed to us today are due to lifestyle choices. There's a growing corpus of evidence that diet has incredible potential for treating serious brain disorders (when done with a psychiatrist, especially if you're already medicated)[0]. At the end of the day, you are the only person who sets the priorities in your life. If you don't make maintenance of your body and mind a priority, the bill will come later. [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61129785-brain-energy https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61129785-brain-energy
rocket_surgeron 4y ago
For the most profoundly addicted, the acutely dying, and those who are mentally ill to the point of being unable to participate in society these are luxuries. For everyone else, they are mandatory. Exercise is the easiest. Exercise isn't running and weightlifting, exercise is pushing your body to the limits so that its limits slowly increase over time. For 600lbs people exercise may be standing up and sitting down. For the elderly, like my 92 year old grandmother with COPD, exercise is curling and doing overhead presses with a heavy book while seated. People with cystic fibrosis exercise, and are usually exercise machines because if they stop they die. Patients in iron lungs exercise. The only people who can't exercise are those in hospice care. If you can stand, standing until you cannot stand anymore is exercise. If you can walk, 5 seconds more walking than you did yesterday is exercise. Wheelchair-bound patients with Osteogenesis Imperfecta can (and are highly encouraged to) exercise. Exercise costs $0.00. If you are so ill that you cannot pick up a 1 lbs dumbbell, putting a rubber band around your fingers and opening and closing your hand is exercise and will have benefits. If you are not acutely dying, you can exercise. All forms of exercise at all levels for all people has a benefit-- however small, it is a benefit. Eating right is harder, but is accessible to any able-bodied, homed, person. Able-bodied doesn't mean healthy. Able-bodied means "able to turn on a hotplate and lift a bag of beans." Social support is the hardest, but is doable for all but the most mentally ill. There are roughly 35,000 social support groups full of people looking for a social support network dotted across the country. Many of them meet online so anyone who can read HN can participate as a first step. I do not believe they are adequate. I do believe that online support groups are an outstanding and effective first step. Lacking a social support network is often fatal to human beings, and those who lack support need to work extremely hard to obtain one, but it isn't impossible. There are human being for who exercise, diet, and friends are luxuries. Someone active on hacker news is PROBABLY not one of them.

They are only that way because our society treats them as luxuries instead of baseline "these are needed to properly take care of yourself." Apparently only the rich deserve things like this, according to US society. You know, rich folks like Steve Jobs who definitely listen to their doctors and their support networks and definitely don't fall for quacky bullshit that means they die from a totally manageable type of cancer.

t-writescode 4y ago

I have to disagree. That Western Society has systemically chosen to redefine them as luxuries and has forced its residents to treat them as luxuries, rather than the obligation for a healthy human experience that they are is a major source of the harm we experience every day. We need to return to considering and treating them as the mandatories that they are or else we will continue to experience the cost of neglecting them, just like neglecting Vitamin C results in scurvy.

ianlevesque 4y ago

No, no, everything is a personal failing. Pull yourself up by those bootstraps. What externalities?

jimbob45 4y ago

Couldn't agree more. Seems like a lot of people on here think that low-income earners eat off of the McD's dollar menu by choice.

t-writescode 4y ago
I absolutely don't think that. I think that company owners, share holders, "The Economy" have decided that low earners don't deserve healthy lives; and that many of those low earners have been tricked into agreeing that it's best to live "under foot" and that those things are luxuries. It would be like cheering a factory on for all the missing arms its employees have, and then having all the factory employees mock the newcommers with two arms trying to protest losing an arm only to have the tenured ones laugh at them and think that's privilege. We've brainwashed generations of self and systemic harm
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
Beans, rice, eggs and oats are cheaper, healthier and quicker than Mcdonalds. (Rice is not quicker). If McDonals were the only choice they wouldn't be spending millions on advertising.
- t-writescode 4y ago
  They're also more emotionally taxing to create, and come with several externalities that aren't baked in to the price of the dollar menu: * dish washing (do they even have dishes?) * power usage of stove * time to clean up * a singular, large lump of time to go out and buy all those food * the necessary mental spoons to plan those numerous meals each week * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken, for example) * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks And so on
  - Jtsummers 4y ago
    * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken, for example) Other than eggs, and this is in the US not all countries, you don't need a refrigerator for the listed items. Beans, rice, and oats do not require refrigeration. Many fruits and vegetables also don't need refrigeration [0]. * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks This is mitigated by learning what does and does not need to be refrigerated and storing things properly. [0] https://extension.purdue.edu/foodlink/includes/pubs/Storing%20Fruits%20and%20Veggies.pdf https://extension.purdue.edu/foodlink/includes/pubs/Storing%...

acabal 4y ago

I think it's important to note that they're luxuries in the modern society we've built for ourselves in the West. Long, long ago, small communities without access to high-speed travel provided social support; no cars and little white-collar work means exercise was baked into life with much walking and manual labor; diet was mostly unprocessed food farmed nearby; and no screens or even electricity meant sleep well before midnight till dawn. Of course, there were plenty of problems back then, too - I'm not saying it was an idyllic utopia. But in our modern life, it seems like we've just traded one set of problems for another.

teaearlgraycold 4y ago

I understand this is probably an uncomfortable topic, but I’d love to hear more from you on this.

algoatecorn 4y ago

If you put diet, exercise, sleep, and social support on a sliding scale, can you honestly say that you're doing everything in your power to maximize each one? I don't know your personal details, but most people who think this way are not actually trying their hardest in each category. Sure, some small percentage is going to face monumental challenges. But look at the data in the US for example. 70% of our deaths are caused by NCDs. Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits

t-writescode 4y ago
> Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits And yet they don't, so it suggests to me that "it's not that simple". It's better to imagine that people _are_ doing what they can and it's still not enough, so rather than victim blaming, we can discover what's actually going on in these people's lives that's stopping their ability to reach it. Are they so downtrodden that it's not worth the effort anymore? Are they actually working 2-3 jobs and 100 hours of unexpected time a week so they literally don't have time? Do they live so far away from work because they can't afford to live close such that all their time is spent commuting and they have no extra time anymore?
- algoatecorn 4y ago
  Let's be intellectually honest here. It's not victim blaming to point out that "can't" isn't reasonable language. Life is hard. Doesn't mean we "can't" have some control over these variables. As I said, there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they don't represent the bulk of scenarios.
  - t-writescode 4y ago
    > there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they don't represent the bulk of scenarios. You say this, but you also say, "Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits" 70% and "most of 70%" are still either a majority or at the very least a plurality; so, I have to strongly disagree that they don't represent the bulk of the scenarios. Is your argument that most people are lazy and should suck it up and get over it and fix themselves?

landryraccoon 4y ago

Good food I can see as a luxury. How is exercise a luxury though? It seems like going for a walk or a run is available to almost everyone. If anything it seems like those on the lower income level would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more than the wealthy.

t-writescode 4y ago
> would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more I have no citation, but I believe most low-income jobs in the US involve: * standing for long, long hours and not moving (cashiers) * sitting for long, long hours and not moving (call centers)

xenospn 4y ago

Is someone holding a gun to your head and preventing you from eating fruits and vegetables?

wyldberry 4y ago

They are not luxuries. Modern society has just made it easy to neglect these things for various reasons. The lies we tell ourselves about it not mandatory until you burn out or need medical intervention. Modern medicine will provide various interventions to help out such as trying to balance your brain chemistry, lowering obesity, blood pressure, etc. Many of the things prescribed to us today are due to lifestyle choices. There's a growing corpus of evidence that diet has incredible potential for treating serious brain disorders (when done with a psychiatrist, especially if you're already medicated)[0]. At the end of the day, you are the only person who sets the priorities in your life. If you don't make maintenance of your body and mind a priority, the bill will come later. [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61129785-brain-energy https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61129785-brain-energy

rocket_surgeron 4y ago

For the most profoundly addicted, the acutely dying, and those who are mentally ill to the point of being unable to participate in society these are luxuries. For everyone else, they are mandatory. Exercise is the easiest. Exercise isn't running and weightlifting, exercise is pushing your body to the limits so that its limits slowly increase over time. For 600lbs people exercise may be standing up and sitting down. For the elderly, like my 92 year old grandmother with COPD, exercise is curling and doing overhead presses with a heavy book while seated. People with cystic fibrosis exercise, and are usually exercise machines because if they stop they die. Patients in iron lungs exercise. The only people who can't exercise are those in hospice care. If you can stand, standing until you cannot stand anymore is exercise. If you can walk, 5 seconds more walking than you did yesterday is exercise. Wheelchair-bound patients with Osteogenesis Imperfecta can (and are highly encouraged to) exercise. Exercise costs $0.00. If you are so ill that you cannot pick up a 1 lbs dumbbell, putting a rubber band around your fingers and opening and closing your hand is exercise and will have benefits. If you are not acutely dying, you can exercise. All forms of exercise at all levels for all people has a benefit-- however small, it is a benefit. Eating right is harder, but is accessible to any able-bodied, homed, person. Able-bodied doesn't mean healthy. Able-bodied means "able to turn on a hotplate and lift a bag of beans." Social support is the hardest, but is doable for all but the most mentally ill. There are roughly 35,000 social support groups full of people looking for a social support network dotted across the country. Many of them meet online so anyone who can read HN can participate as a first step. I do not believe they are adequate. I do believe that online support groups are an outstanding and effective first step. Lacking a social support network is often fatal to human beings, and those who lack support need to work extremely hard to obtain one, but it isn't impossible. There are human being for who exercise, diet, and friends are luxuries. Someone active on hacker news is PROBABLY not one of them.