6 ms·

To be fair, regular therapy is also slightly dehumanising and dystopian. Not too long ago we had cultural constructions to prevent the issues we are now solving

by vjk800 3y ago

To be fair, regular therapy is also slightly dehumanising and dystopian. Not too long ago we had cultural constructions to prevent the issues we are now solving with therapy. Do you lack social context, close relationships and meaningful interactions with other people? Wait until you go nuts and then pay 100 euros a session to a stranger to help you deal with it. And I speak from experience after going to therapy for my anxiety. I guess it sort of helped, but also I could very easily imagine a world where the whole problem wouldn't have existed in the first place - it's just not the world that we live in.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Bowling Alone came out in 2000 and it’s about trends that’s happened since the ‘50s. It’s arguable that said cultural constructions have been disappearing for a while.
- 1attice 3y ago
  I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. Concerned about the latest reports on ocean warming? Well, climate change has been happening for a while! Concerned about the AI-fuelled destruction of art and writing as middle-class careers? Don't worry, artists have been poor for quite a while! It's possible (and, indeed, likely) that: - Things have gotten progressively worse - There is a tipping point, after which the system will undergo a phase change; i.e. the difference between making rent and not making rent - We are now much closer to that point than we were Expected response is, "oh fsck, that makes the current situation even worse, I should definitely care about it!" Response I see instead is, "well that's old news." (So, call this the Old News Defense.) What is fascinating to me is the frequency with which this defense is thrown up. I'm pretty sure that if we got hit by an asteroid, someone would be commenting, "don't worry, we've been getting hit with asteroids since Chicxulub, stop being alarmist"
  - AlchemistCamp 3y ago
    > I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. It's probably worth examining where this reflexive response comes from. The person you're replying to didn't defend anything. The comment was just that the trend predates the past couple of decades.
    - 1attice 3y ago
      In context, I interpret GP as implying that things have been bad for a while -- a sort of deflationary position that is popular on HN when something Big is happening. If that's not what's going on here, I apologize -- but yes, it's a strong HN tendency. It's a sort of machismo stance that derides alarm as alarmism, and it's quite popular here. Cf. HN comments on pretty much any article on AI from the past three months.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I think it's unfair you're being downvoted for sharing your experience. Definitely agree that human therapists aren't perfect either. I never had much success with therapy personally. I've had to basically figure it all out myself. But I have occasionally had some really good therapy sessions. But ok, at least with a therapist, another human being cares enough to want to help, and that can make a difference. Tell a heavily depressed person to use a chat bot, and you're implicitly telling them they're so worthless that they're not even worth another human having a conversation with them. You might not mean that, but that is what the depressed mind will read into it.
- Gare 3y ago
  > But ok, at least with a therapist, another human being cares enough to want to help, and that can make a difference. Usually there's money involved, no?
  - ambicapter 3y ago
    No one's forcing them to take that job so on some level, yes, they do want to be there.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    Of course, but just because you're getting paid doesn't mean you don't care. They might seem cold because they have to practice a certain level of detachment. But most therapists do care about their patients, that's why they became therapists in the first place. Also, therapists usually have long referral lists, so they still have to decide that you're worth their time and that they believe they can help you.
- vjk800 3y ago
  > But ok, at least with a therapist, another human being cares enough to want to help, and that can make a difference. That's sort of my point. They don't actually care, they help you because you pay them. I don't know if it's how I grew up or what, but this is somehow off-putting to me. I mean, I'm not against paying for services in general, but the sort of human interaction that therapy provides seems me like something that we should be able to get without money.
popotamonga 3y ago
Why can't an app be a certified medical device? I'm actually working on one and close to getting certification as a medical device, which will then be rolled out by hospitals etc. Feedback from user testing has been great, patients loved it generally.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  Are you asking why it can't or why it shouldn't? Because it can be classified as such, as you're experiencing first-hand.
fowtowmowcow 3y ago
American here. Visited a psych ward once (because suicidal idealization was happening and I wanted/asked for help for the first time in my life). Well if my experience in one of those facilities is not an uncommon one, then they are horrifyingly dehumanizing and actually cause harm to other people (this is what I observed). A big problem in facilities is that the information they receive will determine more of what they will do/prescribe than what the patient is actually asking for. I watched transgendered patients be purposely miss gendered by staff. Countless other patients being otherwise ignored or treated like anything they have to say doesn't matter because of where they are or the diagnosis that they have. For myself I was told I was schizophrenic and prescribe meds with terrible side effects because my parents told that to the admit facility. No treatment for depression and anxiety was really given (which is what I was saying I wanted), I was ignored by the therapist and social worker assigned to me, and the contact that I wished to hear from was conveniently removed from my file. Therapists and support staff in the public sector outside of a mental hospital are grossly underpaid, thus only the inexperienced and inept (with a few people that care too much for their own good) are the ones likely to be working in Federally funded health centers. Mental Healthcare is a abysmal joke in the United States. Suicide is very easily a valid and top choice here.
- j33zusjuice 3y ago
  Your experience is not unique. I’ll never go back to a psych ward. It was the worst thing I’ve ever experienced.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > Visited a psych ward once (because suicidal idealization was happening and I wanted/asked for help for the first time in my life). > I watched transgendered patients be purposely miss gendered by staff. Countless other patients being otherwise ignored or treated like anything they have to say doesn't matter because of where they are or the diagnosis that they have. > For myself I was told I was schizophrenic and prescribe meds with terrible side effects because my parents told that to the admit facility. No treatment for depression and anxiety was really given (which is what I was saying I wanted), I was ignored by the therapist and social worker assigned to me, and the contact that I wished to hear from was conveniently removed from my file. If you had the capacity to self-direct your care, you wouldn't have needed to be in a mental hospital in the first place. You would have done the rational thing and sought help from somewhere other than a crisis intervention center. You were clearly also a minor at the time. Mental hospitals do suck for many reasons but your expectations are/were unrealistic. As an adult, you'll have the same experience declaring bankruptcy and bemoaning why nobody will give you a credit card. "Helping" you means trusting someone else to pull you out of the pit and not letting you jump right back into it. Sometimes that means not letting you make phone calls with whoever on the outside contributed to your being there. I don't disagree with your opinion that it's all a joke (especially for what it costs; just send your ass to summer camp) but the solution is not to literally let the lunatics run the asylum. Go to Discord for that.
kayodelycaon 3y ago
It really depends why you're going to therapy. For myself, I went into it with very specific goals. I wanted to learn how to properly manage bipolar disorder. That's not something any of my friends could have helped with. None of them had heard of cognitive behavioral therapy before. (And I had done a half-assed job of reinventing the concept.) For me, therapy was very similar to private tutoring sessions. I did almost all of the work. Took about a year to nail down all of the corners. Haven't had to go back since. In an ideal world, therapists should be no different from personal trainers. No one really questions having someone help you learn how to exercise. Learning how to handle your mental hardware should be the same way. Granted, we're living in a Sci-Fi dystopia. We're have a lot less problems if we didn't. Therapy is a very poor replacement for having a good social support system. But for some things, it's a resource your usual support system is unlikely to have.

by vjk800 3y ago

Apocryphon 3y ago

Bowling Alone came out in 2000 and it’s about trends that’s happened since the ‘50s. It’s arguable that said cultural constructions have been disappearing for a while.

1attice 3y ago
I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. Concerned about the latest reports on ocean warming? Well, climate change has been happening for a while! Concerned about the AI-fuelled destruction of art and writing as middle-class careers? Don't worry, artists have been poor for quite a while! It's possible (and, indeed, likely) that: - Things have gotten progressively worse - There is a tipping point, after which the system will undergo a phase change; i.e. the difference between making rent and not making rent - We are now much closer to that point than we were Expected response is, "oh fsck, that makes the current situation even worse, I should definitely care about it!" Response I see instead is, "well that's old news." (So, call this the Old News Defense.) What is fascinating to me is the frequency with which this defense is thrown up. I'm pretty sure that if we got hit by an asteroid, someone would be commenting, "don't worry, we've been getting hit with asteroids since Chicxulub, stop being alarmist"
- AlchemistCamp 3y ago
  > I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. It's probably worth examining where this reflexive response comes from. The person you're replying to didn't defend anything. The comment was just that the trend predates the past couple of decades.
  - 1attice 3y ago
    In context, I interpret GP as implying that things have been bad for a while -- a sort of deflationary position that is popular on HN when something Big is happening. If that's not what's going on here, I apologize -- but yes, it's a strong HN tendency. It's a sort of machismo stance that derides alarm as alarmism, and it's quite popular here. Cf. HN comments on pretty much any article on AI from the past three months.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

I think it's unfair you're being downvoted for sharing your experience. Definitely agree that human therapists aren't perfect either. I never had much success with therapy personally. I've had to basically figure it all out myself. But I have occasionally had some really good therapy sessions. But ok, at least with a therapist, another human being cares enough to want to help, and that can make a difference. Tell a heavily depressed person to use a chat bot, and you're implicitly telling them they're so worthless that they're not even worth another human having a conversation with them. You might not mean that, but that is what the depressed mind will read into it.

Gare 3y ago
> But ok, at least with a therapist, another human being cares enough to want to help, and that can make a difference. Usually there's money involved, no?
- ambicapter 3y ago
  No one's forcing them to take that job so on some level, yes, they do want to be there.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Of course, but just because you're getting paid doesn't mean you don't care. They might seem cold because they have to practice a certain level of detachment. But most therapists do care about their patients, that's why they became therapists in the first place. Also, therapists usually have long referral lists, so they still have to decide that you're worth their time and that they believe they can help you.
vjk800 3y ago
> But ok, at least with a therapist, another human being cares enough to want to help, and that can make a difference. That's sort of my point. They don't actually care, they help you because you pay them. I don't know if it's how I grew up or what, but this is somehow off-putting to me. I mean, I'm not against paying for services in general, but the sort of human interaction that therapy provides seems me like something that we should be able to get without money.

popotamonga 3y ago

Why can't an app be a certified medical device? I'm actually working on one and close to getting certification as a medical device, which will then be rolled out by hospitals etc. Feedback from user testing has been great, patients loved it generally.

hammyhavoc 3y ago
Are you asking why it can't or why it shouldn't? Because it can be classified as such, as you're experiencing first-hand.

fowtowmowcow 3y ago

American here. Visited a psych ward once (because suicidal idealization was happening and I wanted/asked for help for the first time in my life). Well if my experience in one of those facilities is not an uncommon one, then they are horrifyingly dehumanizing and actually cause harm to other people (this is what I observed). A big problem in facilities is that the information they receive will determine more of what they will do/prescribe than what the patient is actually asking for. I watched transgendered patients be purposely miss gendered by staff. Countless other patients being otherwise ignored or treated like anything they have to say doesn't matter because of where they are or the diagnosis that they have. For myself I was told I was schizophrenic and prescribe meds with terrible side effects because my parents told that to the admit facility. No treatment for depression and anxiety was really given (which is what I was saying I wanted), I was ignored by the therapist and social worker assigned to me, and the contact that I wished to hear from was conveniently removed from my file. Therapists and support staff in the public sector outside of a mental hospital are grossly underpaid, thus only the inexperienced and inept (with a few people that care too much for their own good) are the ones likely to be working in Federally funded health centers. Mental Healthcare is a abysmal joke in the United States. Suicide is very easily a valid and top choice here.

j33zusjuice 3y ago
Your experience is not unique. I’ll never go back to a psych ward. It was the worst thing I’ve ever experienced.
jstarfish 3y ago
> Visited a psych ward once (because suicidal idealization was happening and I wanted/asked for help for the first time in my life). > I watched transgendered patients be purposely miss gendered by staff. Countless other patients being otherwise ignored or treated like anything they have to say doesn't matter because of where they are or the diagnosis that they have. > For myself I was told I was schizophrenic and prescribe meds with terrible side effects because my parents told that to the admit facility. No treatment for depression and anxiety was really given (which is what I was saying I wanted), I was ignored by the therapist and social worker assigned to me, and the contact that I wished to hear from was conveniently removed from my file. If you had the capacity to self-direct your care, you wouldn't have needed to be in a mental hospital in the first place. You would have done the rational thing and sought help from somewhere other than a crisis intervention center. You were clearly also a minor at the time. Mental hospitals do suck for many reasons but your expectations are/were unrealistic. As an adult, you'll have the same experience declaring bankruptcy and bemoaning why nobody will give you a credit card. "Helping" you means trusting someone else to pull you out of the pit and not letting you jump right back into it. Sometimes that means not letting you make phone calls with whoever on the outside contributed to your being there. I don't disagree with your opinion that it's all a joke (especially for what it costs; just send your ass to summer camp) but the solution is not to literally let the lunatics run the asylum. Go to Discord for that.

kayodelycaon 3y ago

It really depends why you're going to therapy. For myself, I went into it with very specific goals. I wanted to learn how to properly manage bipolar disorder. That's not something any of my friends could have helped with. None of them had heard of cognitive behavioral therapy before. (And I had done a half-assed job of reinventing the concept.) For me, therapy was very similar to private tutoring sessions. I did almost all of the work. Took about a year to nail down all of the corners. Haven't had to go back since. In an ideal world, therapists should be no different from personal trainers. No one really questions having someone help you learn how to exercise. Learning how to handle your mental hardware should be the same way. Granted, we're living in a Sci-Fi dystopia. We're have a lot less problems if we didn't. Therapy is a very poor replacement for having a good social support system. But for some things, it's a resource your usual support system is unlikely to have.