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A good example of social dystopia would be a situation in a country where economic stress is driving depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation and the soluti

A good example of social dystopia would be a situation in a country where economic stress is driving depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation and the solution proferred is to install an app on your phone that sends you 'positive messages' and directs you to spend what little money you have on drugs that make you feel better. A good analysis of this situation is here: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/opinion/us-mental-health-politics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/opinion/us-mental-health-... > "That the status quo is once again benefiting the usual suspects is all too obvious in the booming market of venture-capital-backed mental health tech start-ups that promise to solve the crisis through a gig economy model for psychiatric care — a model that has been criticized for selling psychiatric medication irresponsibly, with little accountability..." > "And yet when the plan addresses suicide, it focuses on crisis intervention — as if suicide were a kind of unfortunate natural occurrence, like lightning strikes, rather than an expression of the fact that growing numbers of people are becoming convinced that the current state of affairs gives them no reason to hope for a life they’d want to live..." P.S. Another good read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_... Historical societal failures in the Soviet Union have many interesting similarities to current societal failures in the United States.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
Honestly if I was having one of my bad depressive episodes, and someone told me to download a fucking app that's supposed to help me by pandering to me, or I'm supposed to do therapy with a fucking experimental language model. It might depress me so much I'd finally have the motivation to end it. Because yeah, that's dystopian as hell, not to mention dehumanising.
- adamwong246 4y ago
  The idea we can treat mental health through yet an another skinner box is a horrifying unfunny joke. Mental health problems are literally caused by screen addiction and social atomization. The solution is to put the phone down!
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Other way around, screen addiction and social atomization can and does cause mental health problems and make existing mental health problems worse. There are also a lot of mental health problems not caused by these things. :)
- vjk800 4y ago
  To be fair, regular therapy is also slightly dehumanising and dystopian. Not too long ago we had cultural constructions to prevent the issues we are now solving with therapy. Do you lack social context, close relationships and meaningful interactions with other people? Wait until you go nuts and then pay 100 euros a session to a stranger to help you deal with it. And I speak from experience after going to therapy for my anxiety. I guess it sort of helped, but also I could very easily imagine a world where the whole problem wouldn't have existed in the first place - it's just not the world that we live in.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Bowling Alone came out in 2000 and it’s about trends that’s happened since the ‘50s. It’s arguable that said cultural constructions have been disappearing for a while.
    - 1attice 4y ago
      I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. Concerned about the latest reports on ocean warming? Well, climate change has been happening for a while! Concerned about the AI-fuelled destruction of art and writing as middle-class careers? Don't worry, artists have been poor for quite a while! It's possible (and, indeed, likely) that: - Things have gotten progressively worse - There is a tipping point, after which the system will undergo a phase change; i.e. the difference between making rent and not making rent - We are now much closer to that point than we were Expected response is, "oh fsck, that makes the current situation even worse, I should definitely care about it!" Response I see instead is, "well that's old news." (So, call this the Old News Defense.) What is fascinating to me is the frequency with which this defense is thrown up. I'm pretty sure that if we got hit by an asteroid, someone would be commenting, "don't worry, we've been getting hit with asteroids since Chicxulub, stop being alarmist"
      - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
        > I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. It's probably worth examining where this reflexive response comes from. The person you're replying to didn't defend anything. The comment was just that the trend predates the past couple of decades.
jiggywiggy 4y ago
Therapy is part of the problem. Often things that people think should be solved by talking to therapist should actually be solved by family, friends and mentors. We try to profesionalize big parts of heathy communities and families so we don't have to deal with its downsides.
- waboremo 4y ago
  You realize a lot of the reason why people are in therapy is because of family, friends, and mentors? Like it's not a lack of initiative, or a lack of communicating; it's being shamed by your own family, being manipulated by friends, etc. So many of these problems stem because humans are fucking complicated (and sometimes cruel) as hell. So no, therapy is not part of the problem. Just because in your hypothetical scenario therapy has now been spread across multiple roles instead of a dedicated one, doesn't mean it ceases to exist - you are now expecting your family, friends, mentors, etc. to act as your therapist at will. Unless you assume people are in therapy just because they get annoyed at how their lover eats breakfast, or whatever superficial aspect that could easily be solved with some chat. I don't know many people paying the cost of therapy for superficial problems like that but hey maybe in your community they do!
  - YellOh 4y ago
    No need to strawman. I think jiggywiggy is just pointing at the mental health issues demonstrably linked to atomization and loss of community in the modern world. As a starting point, consider the growing share of people who describe themselves as having zero friends, and the links between loneliness and mental health issues. Some issues are caused by interpersonal conflict / abuse, but we're delicate social creatures and a lack of family & friends can also be extremely damaging. I doubt people are going to therapy because of how their lover eats breakfast (except maybe extreme misophonia), but there are plenty of people justifiably upset about their complete lack of emotionally intimate relationships with other people. And, as mentioned above, many issues can be alleviated by support from friends and family. At least ideally, if your spouse hits you, you should be able to ask your family or community for support. People lacking those outside relationships only exacerbates mental health issues caused in other relationships.
thenerdhead 4y ago
This goes back even further. Humans have always desired a new medication or technical invention to resolve the woe in their souls.
7952 4y ago
This will start to happen in business. The company I work for has high levels of stress. We now have lots of HR people sending messages about mental health. Endless messages about mindfulness, yoga, a monthly happy thoughts diary etc. At no point does anyone acknowledge that maybe working conditions are part of the problem. Or that the business has any culpability for stress. It is just another growth vector for charlatans. A corporate branded wellbeing app is the next logical step.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

Honestly if I was having one of my bad depressive episodes, and someone told me to download a fucking app that's supposed to help me by pandering to me, or I'm supposed to do therapy with a fucking experimental language model. It might depress me so much I'd finally have the motivation to end it. Because yeah, that's dystopian as hell, not to mention dehumanising.

adamwong246 4y ago
The idea we can treat mental health through yet an another skinner box is a horrifying unfunny joke. Mental health problems are literally caused by screen addiction and social atomization. The solution is to put the phone down!
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Other way around, screen addiction and social atomization can and does cause mental health problems and make existing mental health problems worse. There are also a lot of mental health problems not caused by these things. :)
vjk800 4y ago
To be fair, regular therapy is also slightly dehumanising and dystopian. Not too long ago we had cultural constructions to prevent the issues we are now solving with therapy. Do you lack social context, close relationships and meaningful interactions with other people? Wait until you go nuts and then pay 100 euros a session to a stranger to help you deal with it. And I speak from experience after going to therapy for my anxiety. I guess it sort of helped, but also I could very easily imagine a world where the whole problem wouldn't have existed in the first place - it's just not the world that we live in.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Bowling Alone came out in 2000 and it’s about trends that’s happened since the ‘50s. It’s arguable that said cultural constructions have been disappearing for a while.
  - 1attice 4y ago
    I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. Concerned about the latest reports on ocean warming? Well, climate change has been happening for a while! Concerned about the AI-fuelled destruction of art and writing as middle-class careers? Don't worry, artists have been poor for quite a while! It's possible (and, indeed, likely) that: - Things have gotten progressively worse - There is a tipping point, after which the system will undergo a phase change; i.e. the difference between making rent and not making rent - We are now much closer to that point than we were Expected response is, "oh fsck, that makes the current situation even worse, I should definitely care about it!" Response I see instead is, "well that's old news." (So, call this the Old News Defense.) What is fascinating to me is the frequency with which this defense is thrown up. I'm pretty sure that if we got hit by an asteroid, someone would be commenting, "don't worry, we've been getting hit with asteroids since Chicxulub, stop being alarmist"
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      > I always see "this is nothing new" used as a sort of psychological defense against dismay. It's probably worth examining where this reflexive response comes from. The person you're replying to didn't defend anything. The comment was just that the trend predates the past couple of decades.

jiggywiggy 4y ago

Therapy is part of the problem. Often things that people think should be solved by talking to therapist should actually be solved by family, friends and mentors. We try to profesionalize big parts of heathy communities and families so we don't have to deal with its downsides.

waboremo 4y ago
You realize a lot of the reason why people are in therapy is because of family, friends, and mentors? Like it's not a lack of initiative, or a lack of communicating; it's being shamed by your own family, being manipulated by friends, etc. So many of these problems stem because humans are fucking complicated (and sometimes cruel) as hell. So no, therapy is not part of the problem. Just because in your hypothetical scenario therapy has now been spread across multiple roles instead of a dedicated one, doesn't mean it ceases to exist - you are now expecting your family, friends, mentors, etc. to act as your therapist at will. Unless you assume people are in therapy just because they get annoyed at how their lover eats breakfast, or whatever superficial aspect that could easily be solved with some chat. I don't know many people paying the cost of therapy for superficial problems like that but hey maybe in your community they do!
- YellOh 4y ago
  No need to strawman. I think jiggywiggy is just pointing at the mental health issues demonstrably linked to atomization and loss of community in the modern world. As a starting point, consider the growing share of people who describe themselves as having zero friends, and the links between loneliness and mental health issues. Some issues are caused by interpersonal conflict / abuse, but we're delicate social creatures and a lack of family & friends can also be extremely damaging. I doubt people are going to therapy because of how their lover eats breakfast (except maybe extreme misophonia), but there are plenty of people justifiably upset about their complete lack of emotionally intimate relationships with other people. And, as mentioned above, many issues can be alleviated by support from friends and family. At least ideally, if your spouse hits you, you should be able to ask your family or community for support. People lacking those outside relationships only exacerbates mental health issues caused in other relationships.

thenerdhead 4y ago

This goes back even further. Humans have always desired a new medication or technical invention to resolve the woe in their souls.

7952 4y ago

This will start to happen in business. The company I work for has high levels of stress. We now have lots of HR people sending messages about mental health. Endless messages about mindfulness, yoga, a monthly happy thoughts diary etc. At no point does anyone acknowledge that maybe working conditions are part of the problem. Or that the business has any culpability for stress. It is just another growth vector for charlatans. A corporate branded wellbeing app is the next logical step.