4 ms·

I'm sorry, but American citizens aren't to blame for this and don't need to shoulder this burden.

piva00 3y ago
American citizens got, collectively, an advantage by exploiting these people. As much as you didn't want them there, they have been working and providing value to your society, and paying taxes. In the end they are not only exploited by the companies taking advantage of a broken system but also now some citizens (you) think they should be punished even more by being kicked out of a place they create roots at. The lack of empathy is, frankly, astounding...
- boringuser2 3y ago
  I like how you think empathy only exists when it isn't being directed towards people you like. It's just such a cynical and emotionally manipulative conceit to demand that your group (I've perused your history and am aware you're an immigrant) be treated with "empathy", which is something you reserve entirely for your own benefit. If other people thought like you, you wouldn't get any at all.
  - piva00 3y ago
    I like how you only attacked me and not even tried to acknowledge you are lacking empathy by wanting to kick people out of a place due to some misplaced anger :) You are aware you can want the current immigration system to change without causing massive harm to some people, right? They are people, with lives, just like you, not some faceless cog in a machine that you can decide doesn't suit you anymore and be thrown out. It's not cynical and manipulative to remind yourself that these are lives, not a fucking number, we are talking about. Good luck with your anger, hopefully you can find healthier and more productive ways to express it.
    - boringuser2 3y ago
      You are incredibly emotionally manipulative. Perhaps you should remember yourself that the lives destroyed by companies outsourcing American wealth (both directly and indirectly via immigration) had a real cost on real people.
      - piva00 3y ago
        You are incredibly dim. Of course it had a real cost on real people, immigration to the USA causes a continuous brain drain in multiple countries that could use the skilled labour for their own benefits. I don't dispute that at all. Outsourcing American wealth causing these companies to become wealthier, maybe it's time you direct your anger somewhere else, somewhere which is actually causing this issue, no? Instead of punishing workers who immigrated and generated wealth for your society. I can give you a tip: point it towards corporations :) Good luck, mate.
- belltaco 3y ago
  I think the punishment for those workers is the thing they want. Their logic is probably that the worse the punishment the less likely people want to work in the US, so that tech salaries will balloon even higher. In reality many jobs will be nearshored to Canada/Mexico or offshored, especially with all the remote friendly setups that have taken place during Covid.
welshwelsh 3y ago
"American citizens" are usually just people who, by no fault and no merit of their own, happen to have been born in the United States. Frankly, this shouldn't give them the right to decide who else gets to come to the US and on what terms. But putting that aside, when Americans issue a visa, they are forming a contract with another person that they are obligated to honor. When someone uproots their life to come to the US by following the rules created by Americans, it would be unconscionable to exploit them and then fail to honor the visa.
- flavius29663 3y ago
  > "American citizens" are usually just people who, by no fault and no merit of their own, happen to have been born in the United States. Frankly, this shouldn't give them the right to decide who else gets to come to the US and on what terms. As an immigrant to the US, I disagree, it's the right of existing Americans to decide how many and what type of new immigrants they accept in their own country. The same way a person born into a rich family -through no merit of their own- has the right to decide who they want to marry and benefit from the riches.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  > Frankly, this shouldn't give them the right to decide who else gets to come to the US and on what terms. Who should decide, then? This view is both undemocratic and anti self determination.
- localplume 3y ago
  Yes that is how citizenship mostly works. That is life. Americans absolutely should have the right to decide who comes to work in the US and on what terms. Unbridled immigration and open borders would be a disaster for everyone involved. America isn't a welfare state for the world. Additionally, H-1B visas are nonimmigrant visas. Workers are aware of this. They are not permanent. If they treat it like its permanent, that is their own fault. Would it be better if USCIS was streamlined? Absolutely. Thats why fraud needs to be cut down and bureaucratic bloat needs to be reduced.
- blululu 3y ago
  Sorry but I have to take a strong disagreement with the claim that anyone has just as much of a right to live in America. Maybe in some highly abstracted form you could say that is America is just job opportunity but for those of us who were born here, it is our home. Our families are here, our lives are here. I'm sure lots of people are more qualified to write Java apps than the native population of America, but America is more than a factory for Java apps. It is communities, cultures and people. Saying that those communities should please make room for anyone who wants a job is just really insensitive and entitled. You see the same thing play out at a local level with gentrification. The people who have built a functional community are squeezed out the moment a large tech company wants to take over the housing stock for a bunch of transplants. The locals are pushed to the margins and a bunch of yuppy tech workers puzzle over why everyone hates them. There is an element of fairness in thinking that we are all the same, but I think you would feel differently if it were your family and friends getting pushed out from the home they built up for a generation.

American citizens got, collectively, an advantage by exploiting these people. As much as you didn't want them there, they have been working and providing value to your society, and paying taxes. In the end they are not only exploited by the companies taking advantage of a broken system but also now some citizens (you) think they should be punished even more by being kicked out of a place they create roots at. The lack of empathy is, frankly, astounding...

boringuser2 3y ago
I like how you think empathy only exists when it isn't being directed towards people you like. It's just such a cynical and emotionally manipulative conceit to demand that your group (I've perused your history and am aware you're an immigrant) be treated with "empathy", which is something you reserve entirely for your own benefit. If other people thought like you, you wouldn't get any at all.
- piva00 3y ago
  I like how you only attacked me and not even tried to acknowledge you are lacking empathy by wanting to kick people out of a place due to some misplaced anger :) You are aware you can want the current immigration system to change without causing massive harm to some people, right? They are people, with lives, just like you, not some faceless cog in a machine that you can decide doesn't suit you anymore and be thrown out. It's not cynical and manipulative to remind yourself that these are lives, not a fucking number, we are talking about. Good luck with your anger, hopefully you can find healthier and more productive ways to express it.
  - boringuser2 3y ago
    You are incredibly emotionally manipulative. Perhaps you should remember yourself that the lives destroyed by companies outsourcing American wealth (both directly and indirectly via immigration) had a real cost on real people.
    - piva00 3y ago
      You are incredibly dim. Of course it had a real cost on real people, immigration to the USA causes a continuous brain drain in multiple countries that could use the skilled labour for their own benefits. I don't dispute that at all. Outsourcing American wealth causing these companies to become wealthier, maybe it's time you direct your anger somewhere else, somewhere which is actually causing this issue, no? Instead of punishing workers who immigrated and generated wealth for your society. I can give you a tip: point it towards corporations :) Good luck, mate.
belltaco 3y ago
I think the punishment for those workers is the thing they want. Their logic is probably that the worse the punishment the less likely people want to work in the US, so that tech salaries will balloon even higher. In reality many jobs will be nearshored to Canada/Mexico or offshored, especially with all the remote friendly setups that have taken place during Covid.

welshwelsh 3y ago

"American citizens" are usually just people who, by no fault and no merit of their own, happen to have been born in the United States. Frankly, this shouldn't give them the right to decide who else gets to come to the US and on what terms. But putting that aside, when Americans issue a visa, they are forming a contract with another person that they are obligated to honor. When someone uproots their life to come to the US by following the rules created by Americans, it would be unconscionable to exploit them and then fail to honor the visa.

flavius29663 3y ago
> "American citizens" are usually just people who, by no fault and no merit of their own, happen to have been born in the United States. Frankly, this shouldn't give them the right to decide who else gets to come to the US and on what terms. As an immigrant to the US, I disagree, it's the right of existing Americans to decide how many and what type of new immigrants they accept in their own country. The same way a person born into a rich family -through no merit of their own- has the right to decide who they want to marry and benefit from the riches.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
> Frankly, this shouldn't give them the right to decide who else gets to come to the US and on what terms. Who should decide, then? This view is both undemocratic and anti self determination.
localplume 3y ago
Yes that is how citizenship mostly works. That is life. Americans absolutely should have the right to decide who comes to work in the US and on what terms. Unbridled immigration and open borders would be a disaster for everyone involved. America isn't a welfare state for the world. Additionally, H-1B visas are nonimmigrant visas. Workers are aware of this. They are not permanent. If they treat it like its permanent, that is their own fault. Would it be better if USCIS was streamlined? Absolutely. Thats why fraud needs to be cut down and bureaucratic bloat needs to be reduced.
blululu 3y ago
Sorry but I have to take a strong disagreement with the claim that anyone has just as much of a right to live in America. Maybe in some highly abstracted form you could say that is America is just job opportunity but for those of us who were born here, it is our home. Our families are here, our lives are here. I'm sure lots of people are more qualified to write Java apps than the native population of America, but America is more than a factory for Java apps. It is communities, cultures and people. Saying that those communities should please make room for anyone who wants a job is just really insensitive and entitled. You see the same thing play out at a local level with gentrification. The people who have built a functional community are squeezed out the moment a large tech company wants to take over the housing stock for a bunch of transplants. The locals are pushed to the margins and a bunch of yuppy tech workers puzzle over why everyone hates them. There is an element of fairness in thinking that we are all the same, but I think you would feel differently if it were your family and friends getting pushed out from the home they built up for a generation.