3 ms·

Speaking off the cuff, I'm not sure that nations can be strictly, or even mostly, defined by their ethnicity. I would need to do some numbers to say anything mo

Speaking off the cuff, I'm not sure that nations can be strictly, or even mostly, defined by their ethnicity. I would need to do some numbers to say anything more formally, but I constantly come back to Israel, Rome, Turkey, even China, where the "nation" had such imminent prestige that myriad ethnicities took on its "nationhood" upon entering/invading/outbreeding even while having zero common parentage with the founders. Did the meta-nations lose something in the process? Sure. Did they endure? I'd say yes. Your nation doesn't necessarily stop because its people are suddenly able to sprout fantastic moustachios. But boy, is that a sore topic. It might actually be the sorest. Great piece, btw.

Ancapistani 3y ago
Japan is the example that immediately comes to mind for me of an ethnically-homogenous nation. My understanding is that someone who isn't ethnically Japanese can never truly "fully assimilate".
- MilStdJunkie 3y ago
  Yeah. As an industrialized country, you either subsidize childbirth, optimize immigration/naturalization/colonializations, or die. There's no third path that I can think of . . aside from deindustrialization. I guess Japan's working on artificial wombs and lots of robots? That might do the trick, I guess, but man . . what a brutal experiment that would be.
dron57 3y ago
China and Rome for sure. But Turkey is a terrible example of your point. Byzantium (or the Roman empire as they called themselves) was absolutely conquered and replaced by foreigners.
- MilStdJunkie 3y ago
  Historically, the Turkish nation was ridiculously multi-ethnic though, wasn't it? You have Altai, Chuvash, Kyrgyz, actual Turcomen, who knows how many others. "I'm proud of my Turkish heritage and have been since I obtained it last week". And yeah, Rome died hard in the East. No denying that. But it's worth noting they had, century after century, so many opportunities to ally and rebirth with other peoples - Syrians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Russians, French - only to stab them right in the kidneys at the absolute worst time. Byzantium was like if you took Black Adder and made him into an entire country. Or Cersei Lannister, in the bad years.

Ancapistani 3y ago

Japan is the example that immediately comes to mind for me of an ethnically-homogenous nation. My understanding is that someone who isn't ethnically Japanese can never truly "fully assimilate".

MilStdJunkie 3y ago
Yeah. As an industrialized country, you either subsidize childbirth, optimize immigration/naturalization/colonializations, or die. There's no third path that I can think of . . aside from deindustrialization. I guess Japan's working on artificial wombs and lots of robots? That might do the trick, I guess, but man . . what a brutal experiment that would be.

dron57 3y ago

China and Rome for sure. But Turkey is a terrible example of your point. Byzantium (or the Roman empire as they called themselves) was absolutely conquered and replaced by foreigners.

MilStdJunkie 3y ago
Historically, the Turkish nation was ridiculously multi-ethnic though, wasn't it? You have Altai, Chuvash, Kyrgyz, actual Turcomen, who knows how many others. "I'm proud of my Turkish heritage and have been since I obtained it last week". And yeah, Rome died hard in the East. No denying that. But it's worth noting they had, century after century, so many opportunities to ally and rebirth with other peoples - Syrians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Russians, French - only to stab them right in the kidneys at the absolute worst time. Byzantium was like if you took Black Adder and made him into an entire country. Or Cersei Lannister, in the bad years.