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This all seems a little disingenuous. First, from their summary, it doesn’t sound like the law actually requires checking a photo ID. They’re treating it like s

This all seems a little disingenuous. First, from their summary, it doesn’t sound like the law actually requires checking a photo ID. They’re treating it like some maximalist regulation that it isn’t—it requires them to do more than nothing though. And also > PornHub said that a better solution is to identify users by their device. Pornhub effectively does absolutely nothing to verify users’ ages right now. Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they did something.

themitigating 4y ago
First admendment?
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  I’m not aware of any cases holding that distribution of pornography to minors is protected speech, but I’d be happy to be educated if you have one.
  - jcranmer 4y ago
    Obscene material is not inherently protected speech, but as it's a content-based restriction, the government is still bound by strict scrutiny to narrowly tailor its laws to achieve its legitimate interest in limiting the distribution of pornography. Furthermore, the definition of obscenity (the Miller test) is actually rather narrow, and there are likely to be several sexual fetishes that don't actually qualify as obscene, and therefore protected speech.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Why?
    - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      Why what? Try posting a comment with more than a word or two if you want a meaningful discussion.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Why is it not interently protected speech? If you are going to make exceptions to the first admendment for safety can you prove the danger explicitly? Why not the 2nd admendment?
        NotYourLawyer 4y ago
        So is that a “no, I’m not aware of any cases holding that either”?
        themitigating 4y ago
        What? I'm not arguing legal cases I'm arguing the gp's first point.
  - brookst 4y ago
    There are several precedents that say restrictions based on content must be evaluated using strict scrutiny, which means the restrictions must be as narrow as possible to achieve the government's interests. See for instance Ashcroft v. ACLU: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/377/ashcroft-v-american-civil-liberties-union https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/377/ashcroft-v-...
    - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      Objection, non-responsive.
- DrThunder 4y ago
  Amendments obviously don't apply to underage citizens. Otherwise, there would be no precedence for stopping children from buying firearms or voting. Saying this is protected speech is ridiculous.
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    It’s not quite that simple. Some parts of the Bill of Rights do apply to minors, other parts apply but in weakened form, etc.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    So then the government can arrest children without due process, hold them without trial, charge them with sedition for anti government comments?
    - DrThunder 3y ago
      Do you not understand how minors are treated in the legal system? You know full well, under the age of 18 you do not get full rights.
aflag 4y ago
I'm curious. What's in between nothing and checking id?
- xyzzy4747 4y ago
  Just my own thoughts: there could theoretically be an identity system that simply replies "Yes/No" if someone is underage or not. But nothing like this exists to my knowledge.
  - aflag 4y ago
    That service would need to be run by a third party, which would know your id and the fact that you are trying to access pornhub, wouldn't it?
    - xyzzy4747 4y ago
      Yes, something that has access to your actual ID.
    - CubsFan1060 4y ago
      To be clear, I hate all of these ideas. But, I think Apple already does this. https://developer.apple.com/wallet/get-started-with-verify-with-wallet/ https://developer.apple.com/wallet/get-started-with-verify-w... "Information about past presentments — including where, when, and what personal information you share — is encrypted and stored only on your device. Neither the state issuing authority nor Apple can see your presentment history." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213046 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213046
      - aflag 4y ago
        I see. My understanding of it is that apple gives you a signed letter saying that you're verified to be over 18. While it's possible to verify that the signed document is legitimate, if it's in any way tied to the person presenting it, you just created an id, no?
    - 4y ago
formerly_proven 4y ago
Personally I think these kinds of regulations are pointless and just needlessly destructive. If you actually start to enforce them you get results like in germany, where they created an AI/ML tool scanning public posts for lewd pictures (marked 18+ or not, since that doesn't matter under german law) and try to fine the poster. Compliant sites actually do require state-issued ID to validate your age and grant access. It's extremely invasive. I think the internet access of minors is their parents business. This is a very reasonable approach, largely the case for most other aspects of law anyway, and has minimal externalities. Lawmakers can pass minimum standards for content filtering/restrictions that major device manufacturers need to comply with. It is also orders of magnitude more practical to ensure a "safe experience" with device-side restrictions compared to the feeble and nonsensical attempt of making the entire internet safe for ten year olds.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  I don't understand - what is a reasonable regulation?
tokai 4y ago
>Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they did something I don't get that. Why would it be good? Why should it ever be a webpage's responsibility?
- sslayer 4y ago
  Well, because then we can hold someone else responsible instead of having any personal responsibility for our own actions.
- rtpg 4y ago
  There are some people who believe that access to certain services should be age-gated. Thus follows that a web page offering the service should handle this age gating, in the same way that alcohol sellers are responsible for checking that their customers are of drinking age. In the Real World(TM) this is a fairly uncontroversial idea. The Internet is very wild west on these things and that has lead to interesting outcomes... but really age gating porn is in line with many things in the world.
  - thehm 4y ago
    Where can one buy an internet connection without being at least 18 years old? To use your analogy, it is parents who are paying for the alcohol and then leaving it in a place where it is easy for their children to access. Responsible parents either teach their children about appropriate alcohol use or make it difficult to access, or both.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > Where can one buy an internet connection without being at least 18 years old? Prepaid phone cards are a thing.
      - thehm 4y ago
        Where I live, they can only legally be sold to people ≥ 18 years old. Maybe that should be more commonplace?
jrochkind1 4y ago
What ways are there to verify age online other than photo IDs? Real question, I am not familiar with this area. When I google, I find several third-party "age verification as a service" services. Their marketing isn't always clear about what they actually do, but I think they all look like they get photo ID (not sure if they do anything to try to confirm the person sending the ID is that person). Their pricing is also not generally public.
- rtpg 4y ago
  One example: in Japan cell phone operators provide a mechanism by which you can OAuth into their system, and then they will tell you whether the user is over 18 or not. This lets Line age-restrict "become friends with random people online" functionality.
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    That doesn't scale well. How does it expand to PCs, SmartTVs, tablets, games consoles, etc?
    - rtpg 4y ago
      User account associated to a phone number is a common tactic. Phone numbers serving as a proxy for identity is more and more of a thing. People might talk about burner phones, but many localities never really had burner phones in the first place (Japan doesn't give a phone number on travel SIMs, there's "no way" to have a phone number without getting your ID checked somewhere), and other localities are tightening the grip on this. It's not a universally nice and open solution. But it's probably one most markets will bear
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    That's interesting, and I have some questions about it. But doesn't currently seem to be available for complying with the Utah law. I was interested in ways that would be practical for pornhub to use, operating not just in Japan, and especially in the USA. The GP's comment made me wonder if they had some in mind, that could be used to comply with the Utah law.
brookst 4y ago
So having read the law, what form of age verification do you thunk would allow pornhub to operate legally in Utah?
MiddleEndian 4y ago
>Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they did something. If it were instead illegal for sites to check for your ID outside of a handful of circumstances, that would be much preferable. Last thing we need is more privacy invasions on the web. Unfortunately, things are going in the wrong direction, both from private interests and from newer govt regulations.
webmobdev 4y ago
Not to mention that "identifying users by their device" is the wet dream of BigTech - it's like a "hardware cookie" that can track you anywhere you go on the internet. (And that's exactly why BigTech like Microsoft, Google, Apple etc. are already promoting user authentication by device, as the first step towards this).
icegreentea2 4y ago
The law is: > 72 (9) "Reasonable age verification methods" means verifying that the person seeking to > 73 access the material is 18 years old or older by using any of the following methods: > 74 (a) use of a digitized information card as defined in this section; > 75 (b) verification through an independent, third-party age verification service that > 76 compares the personal information entered by the individual who is seeking access to the > 77 material that is available from a commercially available database, or aggregate of databases, > 78 that is regularly used by government agencies and businesses for the purpose of age and > 79 identity verification; or > 80 (c) any commercially reasonable method that relies on public or private transactional > 81 data to verify the age of the person attempting to access the material. Edit: For clarity adding the definition of "transactional data" - there's no clever loophole there either. Basically, data mine/data broker shit. Perhaps less maximalist than "just check the ID", but hardly what anyone would consider a meaningfully "minimal" solution either. > 84 (11) (a) "Transactional data" means a sequence of information that documents an > 85 exchange, agreement, or transfer between an individual, commercial entity, or third party used > 86 for the purpose of satisfying a request or event. > 87 (b) "Transactional data" includes records from mortgage, education, and employment > 88 entities.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  “Any commercially reasonable method” is honestly about as minimal as I can imagine a law like this being.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Is this much different to a shop needing ID to sell a pornographic magazine, to avoid selling it to a minor?
  - jdiff 4y ago
    Don't need an ID to buy a tablet. Or a used phone. Or back in the day, a Nintendo DS or PSP even. I'm sure I still have a PSP Memory Stick around here someone with saucy pixel art stashed away in the bookmarks. This is a genie that hasn't been in a bottle since the internet was born and it won't be put back in one now. At least not like this.
jmull 4y ago
> This all seems a little disingenuous. Why do people always seem to use the word disingenuous disingenuously? :) Obviously, the number of people willing to verify their identity and attach it to their pornhub searches and other activity is close enough to zero to make no difference to pornhub's business.

themitigating 4y ago

First admendment?

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
I’m not aware of any cases holding that distribution of pornography to minors is protected speech, but I’d be happy to be educated if you have one.
- jcranmer 4y ago
  Obscene material is not inherently protected speech, but as it's a content-based restriction, the government is still bound by strict scrutiny to narrowly tailor its laws to achieve its legitimate interest in limiting the distribution of pornography. Furthermore, the definition of obscenity (the Miller test) is actually rather narrow, and there are likely to be several sexual fetishes that don't actually qualify as obscene, and therefore protected speech.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Why?
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    Why what? Try posting a comment with more than a word or two if you want a meaningful discussion.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Why is it not interently protected speech? If you are going to make exceptions to the first admendment for safety can you prove the danger explicitly? Why not the 2nd admendment?
      - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
        So is that a “no, I’m not aware of any cases holding that either”?
        themitigating 4y ago
        What? I'm not arguing legal cases I'm arguing the gp's first point.
- brookst 4y ago
  There are several precedents that say restrictions based on content must be evaluated using strict scrutiny, which means the restrictions must be as narrow as possible to achieve the government's interests. See for instance Ashcroft v. ACLU: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/377/ashcroft-v-american-civil-liberties-union https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/377/ashcroft-v-...
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    Objection, non-responsive.
DrThunder 4y ago
Amendments obviously don't apply to underage citizens. Otherwise, there would be no precedence for stopping children from buying firearms or voting. Saying this is protected speech is ridiculous.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  It’s not quite that simple. Some parts of the Bill of Rights do apply to minors, other parts apply but in weakened form, etc.
- themitigating 4y ago
  So then the government can arrest children without due process, hold them without trial, charge them with sedition for anti government comments?
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    Do you not understand how minors are treated in the legal system? You know full well, under the age of 18 you do not get full rights.

aflag 4y ago

I'm curious. What's in between nothing and checking id?

xyzzy4747 4y ago
Just my own thoughts: there could theoretically be an identity system that simply replies "Yes/No" if someone is underage or not. But nothing like this exists to my knowledge.
- aflag 4y ago
  That service would need to be run by a third party, which would know your id and the fact that you are trying to access pornhub, wouldn't it?
  - xyzzy4747 4y ago
    Yes, something that has access to your actual ID.
  - CubsFan1060 4y ago
    To be clear, I hate all of these ideas. But, I think Apple already does this. https://developer.apple.com/wallet/get-started-with-verify-with-wallet/ https://developer.apple.com/wallet/get-started-with-verify-w... "Information about past presentments — including where, when, and what personal information you share — is encrypted and stored only on your device. Neither the state issuing authority nor Apple can see your presentment history." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213046 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213046
    - aflag 4y ago
      I see. My understanding of it is that apple gives you a signed letter saying that you're verified to be over 18. While it's possible to verify that the signed document is legitimate, if it's in any way tied to the person presenting it, you just created an id, no?
  - 4y ago

formerly_proven 4y ago

Personally I think these kinds of regulations are pointless and just needlessly destructive. If you actually start to enforce them you get results like in germany, where they created an AI/ML tool scanning public posts for lewd pictures (marked 18+ or not, since that doesn't matter under german law) and try to fine the poster. Compliant sites actually do require state-issued ID to validate your age and grant access. It's extremely invasive. I think the internet access of minors is their parents business. This is a very reasonable approach, largely the case for most other aspects of law anyway, and has minimal externalities. Lawmakers can pass minimum standards for content filtering/restrictions that major device manufacturers need to comply with. It is also orders of magnitude more practical to ensure a "safe experience" with device-side restrictions compared to the feeble and nonsensical attempt of making the entire internet safe for ten year olds.

robertlagrant 4y ago
I don't understand - what is a reasonable regulation?

tokai 4y ago

>Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they did something I don't get that. Why would it be good? Why should it ever be a webpage's responsibility?

sslayer 4y ago
Well, because then we can hold someone else responsible instead of having any personal responsibility for our own actions.
rtpg 4y ago
There are some people who believe that access to certain services should be age-gated. Thus follows that a web page offering the service should handle this age gating, in the same way that alcohol sellers are responsible for checking that their customers are of drinking age. In the Real World(TM) this is a fairly uncontroversial idea. The Internet is very wild west on these things and that has lead to interesting outcomes... but really age gating porn is in line with many things in the world.
- thehm 4y ago
  Where can one buy an internet connection without being at least 18 years old? To use your analogy, it is parents who are paying for the alcohol and then leaving it in a place where it is easy for their children to access. Responsible parents either teach their children about appropriate alcohol use or make it difficult to access, or both.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > Where can one buy an internet connection without being at least 18 years old? Prepaid phone cards are a thing.
    - thehm 4y ago
      Where I live, they can only legally be sold to people ≥ 18 years old. Maybe that should be more commonplace?

jrochkind1 4y ago

What ways are there to verify age online other than photo IDs? Real question, I am not familiar with this area. When I google, I find several third-party "age verification as a service" services. Their marketing isn't always clear about what they actually do, but I think they all look like they get photo ID (not sure if they do anything to try to confirm the person sending the ID is that person). Their pricing is also not generally public.

rtpg 4y ago
One example: in Japan cell phone operators provide a mechanism by which you can OAuth into their system, and then they will tell you whether the user is over 18 or not. This lets Line age-restrict "become friends with random people online" functionality.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  That doesn't scale well. How does it expand to PCs, SmartTVs, tablets, games consoles, etc?
  - rtpg 4y ago
    User account associated to a phone number is a common tactic. Phone numbers serving as a proxy for identity is more and more of a thing. People might talk about burner phones, but many localities never really had burner phones in the first place (Japan doesn't give a phone number on travel SIMs, there's "no way" to have a phone number without getting your ID checked somewhere), and other localities are tightening the grip on this. It's not a universally nice and open solution. But it's probably one most markets will bear
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  That's interesting, and I have some questions about it. But doesn't currently seem to be available for complying with the Utah law. I was interested in ways that would be practical for pornhub to use, operating not just in Japan, and especially in the USA. The GP's comment made me wonder if they had some in mind, that could be used to comply with the Utah law.

brookst 4y ago

So having read the law, what form of age verification do you thunk would allow pornhub to operate legally in Utah?

MiddleEndian 4y ago

>Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they did something. If it were instead illegal for sites to check for your ID outside of a handful of circumstances, that would be much preferable. Last thing we need is more privacy invasions on the web. Unfortunately, things are going in the wrong direction, both from private interests and from newer govt regulations.

webmobdev 4y ago

Not to mention that "identifying users by their device" is the wet dream of BigTech - it's like a "hardware cookie" that can track you anywhere you go on the internet. (And that's exactly why BigTech like Microsoft, Google, Apple etc. are already promoting user authentication by device, as the first step towards this).

icegreentea2 4y ago

The law is: > 72 (9) "Reasonable age verification methods" means verifying that the person seeking to > 73 access the material is 18 years old or older by using any of the following methods: > 74 (a) use of a digitized information card as defined in this section; > 75 (b) verification through an independent, third-party age verification service that > 76 compares the personal information entered by the individual who is seeking access to the > 77 material that is available from a commercially available database, or aggregate of databases, > 78 that is regularly used by government agencies and businesses for the purpose of age and > 79 identity verification; or > 80 (c) any commercially reasonable method that relies on public or private transactional > 81 data to verify the age of the person attempting to access the material. Edit: For clarity adding the definition of "transactional data" - there's no clever loophole there either. Basically, data mine/data broker shit. Perhaps less maximalist than "just check the ID", but hardly what anyone would consider a meaningfully "minimal" solution either. > 84 (11) (a) "Transactional data" means a sequence of information that documents an > 85 exchange, agreement, or transfer between an individual, commercial entity, or third party used > 86 for the purpose of satisfying a request or event. > 87 (b) "Transactional data" includes records from mortgage, education, and employment > 88 entities.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
“Any commercially reasonable method” is honestly about as minimal as I can imagine a law like this being.
robertlagrant 4y ago
Is this much different to a shop needing ID to sell a pornographic magazine, to avoid selling it to a minor?
- jdiff 4y ago
  Don't need an ID to buy a tablet. Or a used phone. Or back in the day, a Nintendo DS or PSP even. I'm sure I still have a PSP Memory Stick around here someone with saucy pixel art stashed away in the bookmarks. This is a genie that hasn't been in a bottle since the internet was born and it won't be put back in one now. At least not like this.

jmull 4y ago

> This all seems a little disingenuous. Why do people always seem to use the word disingenuous disingenuously? :) Obviously, the number of people willing to verify their identity and attach it to their pornhub searches and other activity is close enough to zero to make no difference to pornhub's business.