3 ms·

I see this kind of reply all the time. "Fine, you guys were right, the gov fucked up - but at least we learned, fixed it and moved on." Narrator: Nothing was

I see this kind of reply all the time. "Fine, you guys were right, the gov fucked up - but at least we learned, fixed it and moved on." Narrator: Nothing was fixed, and they did not learn.

soco 4y ago
To claim that nothing was fixed, you need to present us with some proof of further fuckup. Please proceed to do so.
- pigeonhole123 4y ago
  What about the claim that it was fixed? Does that require no further evidence?
  - Dah00n 4y ago
    You can show evidence of that without being all knowing. We know it didn't get fixed, so there's no need.
- Dah00n 4y ago
  Okay then. >From April 1945 to July 1947, 18 men, women, and children were injected with plutonium by doctors working with the Manhattan Project And then... >In 1952, Chester M. Southam, a Sloan-Kettering Institute researcher, injected live cancer cells, known as HeLa cells, into prisoners at the Ohio State Penitentiary and cancer patients. Also at Sloan-Kettering, 300 healthy females were injected with live cancer cells without being told. The doctors stated that they knew at the time that it might cause cancer. And then from 1953... >Project MKUltra was an illegal human experimentation program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), intended to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used in interrogations to weaken individuals and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture. And yet again.... >In 1963, 22 elderly patients at the Jewish Chronic Disease Hospital in Brooklyn, New York City were injected with live cancer cells by Chester M. Southam, who in 1952 had done the same to prisoners at the Ohio State Prison. There are hundreds of examples that we know of. There's even more than one Wikipedia article full of them.
  - soco 4y ago
    That is true, my question was however about _actual_ cases, because 1950's USA is not 2020's USA (neither Germany, nor Iran, nor whatever country). Because I'm not arguing bad stuff never happened (or happens), I'm arguing that measures to make this less likely to happen have been and are taken continuously. Are those measures enough though? Without examples I cannot judge in good faith.
    - cmmeur01 4y ago
      Or measures to hid these things have gotten better?
    - ComplexSystems 4y ago
      Who, exactly, "changed" things? Who are enforcing these "measures?" This wasn't an isolated instance of rogue doctors running amok. The same people supposedly setting the standards are the same people doing this stuff to begin with. Are we to assume that one day, they had a big epiphany that killing people is bad, or something?
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    Where's the Wikipedia article? It would be good to see some more recent examples, and by a more diverse set of perpetrators.
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      There's one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio...
dale_glass 4y ago
What do you mean nothing? Organizations like the FDA famously got a lot more powerful after incidents like with Thalidomide -- a big enough screwup seems to result in very considerable change. Why here it's also not rare to see people complain about the onerous regulations on nuclear power, guess where those came from?
- p-e-w 4y ago
  Thalidomide, Three Mile Island, etc. were accidents – caused by negligence and poor standards, sure, but accidents nonetheless. These doctors deliberately poisoned people for a sick experiment while lying about it. If you really can't tell the difference, and if it isn't obvious to you that the latter can't be "fixed" simply with stricter regulation, I don't know what to tell you.
  - dale_glass 4y ago
    > If you really can't tell the difference, and if it isn't obvious to you that the latter can't be "fixed" simply with stricter regulation, I don't know what to tell you. I don't see a fundamental difference. Harm was done, rules should be put in place to prevent it in the future. Whether it was negligence or intentional is just a detail. I don't see what's different about intentional harm that's not preventable with regulation. You put more people in the loop. You ensure that whoever breaks the rules sees no benefit. You can't prevent everything of course, but you can cut down a lot on it.
    - ComplexSystems 4y ago
      It was always illegal to poison people. These doctors didn't care.
jounker 4y ago
Incidents eventually resulted in the creation of Institutional Review Boards. All research on human subjects must now pass an IRB, and these are not rubber stamp organizations.

I see this kind of reply all the time. "Fine, you guys were right, the gov fucked up - but at least we learned, fixed it and moved on." Narrator: Nothing was fixed, and they did not learn.

soco 4y ago

To claim that nothing was fixed, you need to present us with some proof of further fuckup. Please proceed to do so.

pigeonhole123 4y ago
What about the claim that it was fixed? Does that require no further evidence?
- Dah00n 4y ago
  You can show evidence of that without being all knowing. We know it didn't get fixed, so there's no need.
Dah00n 4y ago
Okay then. >From April 1945 to July 1947, 18 men, women, and children were injected with plutonium by doctors working with the Manhattan Project And then... >In 1952, Chester M. Southam, a Sloan-Kettering Institute researcher, injected live cancer cells, known as HeLa cells, into prisoners at the Ohio State Penitentiary and cancer patients. Also at Sloan-Kettering, 300 healthy females were injected with live cancer cells without being told. The doctors stated that they knew at the time that it might cause cancer. And then from 1953... >Project MKUltra was an illegal human experimentation program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), intended to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used in interrogations to weaken individuals and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture. And yet again.... >In 1963, 22 elderly patients at the Jewish Chronic Disease Hospital in Brooklyn, New York City were injected with live cancer cells by Chester M. Southam, who in 1952 had done the same to prisoners at the Ohio State Prison. There are hundreds of examples that we know of. There's even more than one Wikipedia article full of them.
- soco 4y ago
  That is true, my question was however about _actual_ cases, because 1950's USA is not 2020's USA (neither Germany, nor Iran, nor whatever country). Because I'm not arguing bad stuff never happened (or happens), I'm arguing that measures to make this less likely to happen have been and are taken continuously. Are those measures enough though? Without examples I cannot judge in good faith.
  - cmmeur01 4y ago
    Or measures to hid these things have gotten better?
  - ComplexSystems 4y ago
    Who, exactly, "changed" things? Who are enforcing these "measures?" This wasn't an isolated instance of rogue doctors running amok. The same people supposedly setting the standards are the same people doing this stuff to begin with. Are we to assume that one day, they had a big epiphany that killing people is bad, or something?
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Where's the Wikipedia article? It would be good to see some more recent examples, and by a more diverse set of perpetrators.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    There's one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio...

dale_glass 4y ago

What do you mean nothing? Organizations like the FDA famously got a lot more powerful after incidents like with Thalidomide -- a big enough screwup seems to result in very considerable change. Why here it's also not rare to see people complain about the onerous regulations on nuclear power, guess where those came from?

p-e-w 4y ago
Thalidomide, Three Mile Island, etc. were accidents – caused by negligence and poor standards, sure, but accidents nonetheless. These doctors deliberately poisoned people for a sick experiment while lying about it. If you really can't tell the difference, and if it isn't obvious to you that the latter can't be "fixed" simply with stricter regulation, I don't know what to tell you.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  > If you really can't tell the difference, and if it isn't obvious to you that the latter can't be "fixed" simply with stricter regulation, I don't know what to tell you. I don't see a fundamental difference. Harm was done, rules should be put in place to prevent it in the future. Whether it was negligence or intentional is just a detail. I don't see what's different about intentional harm that's not preventable with regulation. You put more people in the loop. You ensure that whoever breaks the rules sees no benefit. You can't prevent everything of course, but you can cut down a lot on it.
  - ComplexSystems 4y ago
    It was always illegal to poison people. These doctors didn't care.

jounker 4y ago

Incidents eventually resulted in the creation of Institutional Review Boards. All research on human subjects must now pass an IRB, and these are not rubber stamp organizations.