5 ms·

> Eventually everyone decides to play the arms race If everyone plays the arms race, and its hard to commit crime anywhere, we win? This is fundamentally a goo

by voz_ 3y ago

> Eventually everyone decides to play the arms race If everyone plays the arms race, and its hard to commit crime anywhere, we win? This is fundamentally a good thing. "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It is very fashionable and woke to wax poetically about services, and yea, we have serious gaps there, but if someone is going to commit a crime, they should face the consequences.

balls187 3y ago
Catching criminals is a game of cat and mouse. I agree-face consequences. But, it just seems as though the public is tacitly trading in freedoms for security theater, with little real benefit to society.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  People really need to stop getting all of their societal knowledge from various iterations of Ocean’s 11.
  - balls187 3y ago
    Sorry I don’t understand your comment.
KerrAvon 3y ago
It. doesn’t. make. crime. harder. It doesn’t _work_, dude. That’s the point. This is bullshit theater, they’re not even pretending this increases security.
autoexec 3y ago
> "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It's not worth signing up to be victims of a police state either. I get that you think guilty people should suffer, but why should the innocent have their every moment tracked and their personal data handed over to third parties, the local police, and the state? We'd solve a lot more crime by putting cameras in people's homes too, but maybe let's not.
Jochim 3y ago
No one wins. You end up living in a police state and when you do experience crime, it'll likely be more severe. The root of systemic criminality is in the failure of society to justify why it's rules should be respected. That doesn't mean that people should "get away" with crime but it does mean that if you actually want to reduce crime, not just punish criminals, society must convince those people that lawful society is something worth participating in.
- salawat 3y ago
  Thank you. Cripes, someone else actually bloody said it! I second it, vehemently. All punishment does is cement the us vs. them line between the wielders of the enforcement mechanism, and the people it is enforced upon. If you can't get the populace working with and alongside you it's a losing prospect. This is anathema to leadership/power hungry types, who believe they are the bearer of the One True Way, or the Anthropromorphic manifestation of Common Sense; but show me a crime spike, and I'll show you rampant loss of faith/confidence in the system as a cause, not merely a symptom. This is why "Good enough for Government work" as a perjorative is a bloody terrible thing.
- tutorialmanager 3y ago
  The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in. The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that.
  - Jochim 3y ago
    > The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that. "Great teacher inspires inner city kids" is literally a movie trope predicated on the idea that society can, in fact, do something about that. The trope is an over-simplification of the situation but we know for a fact that when society steps in, the children of "bad parents" do much better than they would otherwise. Society in turn benefits just as much, if not more so. > The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in Prison systems in most countries are typically designed to reinforce the disillusion and lack of belonging that landed many of the prisoners there in the first place. In their current form they actively work against incentivising people that society is worth contributing to. To put it another way, we take people that society has generally treated like shit and treat them like worse shit. After a few years of this we turn around with a "surprised pikachu" face when those people don't end their sentence as model members of society. People become criminals, for the most part, they're not born that way. Dealing with criminality means dealing with the situations that give rise to it. When people's needs are met and they believe they're being treated fairly, they are much less likely to engage in acts of criminality. A society that constantly broadcasts extreme displays of wealth at those living in precarity invites only discord and strife.

by voz_ 3y ago

balls187 3y ago

Catching criminals is a game of cat and mouse. I agree-face consequences. But, it just seems as though the public is tacitly trading in freedoms for security theater, with little real benefit to society.

KerrAvon 3y ago
People really need to stop getting all of their societal knowledge from various iterations of Ocean’s 11.
- balls187 3y ago
  Sorry I don’t understand your comment.

KerrAvon 3y ago

It. doesn’t. make. crime. harder. It doesn’t _work_, dude. That’s the point. This is bullshit theater, they’re not even pretending this increases security.

autoexec 3y ago

> "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It's not worth signing up to be victims of a police state either. I get that you think guilty people should suffer, but why should the innocent have their every moment tracked and their personal data handed over to third parties, the local police, and the state? We'd solve a lot more crime by putting cameras in people's homes too, but maybe let's not.

Jochim 3y ago

No one wins. You end up living in a police state and when you do experience crime, it'll likely be more severe. The root of systemic criminality is in the failure of society to justify why it's rules should be respected. That doesn't mean that people should "get away" with crime but it does mean that if you actually want to reduce crime, not just punish criminals, society must convince those people that lawful society is something worth participating in.

salawat 3y ago
Thank you. Cripes, someone else actually bloody said it! I second it, vehemently. All punishment does is cement the us vs. them line between the wielders of the enforcement mechanism, and the people it is enforced upon. If you can't get the populace working with and alongside you it's a losing prospect. This is anathema to leadership/power hungry types, who believe they are the bearer of the One True Way, or the Anthropromorphic manifestation of Common Sense; but show me a crime spike, and I'll show you rampant loss of faith/confidence in the system as a cause, not merely a symptom. This is why "Good enough for Government work" as a perjorative is a bloody terrible thing.
tutorialmanager 3y ago
The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in. The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that.
- Jochim 3y ago
  > The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that. "Great teacher inspires inner city kids" is literally a movie trope predicated on the idea that society can, in fact, do something about that. The trope is an over-simplification of the situation but we know for a fact that when society steps in, the children of "bad parents" do much better than they would otherwise. Society in turn benefits just as much, if not more so. > The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in Prison systems in most countries are typically designed to reinforce the disillusion and lack of belonging that landed many of the prisoners there in the first place. In their current form they actively work against incentivising people that society is worth contributing to. To put it another way, we take people that society has generally treated like shit and treat them like worse shit. After a few years of this we turn around with a "surprised pikachu" face when those people don't end their sentence as model members of society. People become criminals, for the most part, they're not born that way. Dealing with criminality means dealing with the situations that give rise to it. When people's needs are met and they believe they're being treated fairly, they are much less likely to engage in acts of criminality. A society that constantly broadcasts extreme displays of wealth at those living in precarity invites only discord and strife.