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> "We need to deter criminals from finding Palo Alto to be a nice, easy target," Burke said during Monday's hearing. "That needs to stop." This is like peak 20

> "We need to deter criminals from finding Palo Alto to be a nice, easy target," Burke said during Monday's hearing. "That needs to stop." This is like peak 2023. You create a little bubble where the cost to commit a crime increases slightly, so some percentage of criminals just go somewhere else, maybe even the next neighborhood over, where the risk is lower. Meanwhile, nobody is willing to fund the support services necessary to actually reduce the incentive to commit a crime, so crime numbers stay the same or go up, but they happen to someone else instead of you. Great stuff. If they install some spikes on their park benches homelessness will be solved too! And all with just a few dollars and a 1 hour board meeting. Incredible. Eventually everyone decides to play the arms race (but mom they have cameras the next town over) and we get the surveillance dystopia that nobody really wanted. Anyone who tries to fix it now has to face "but now randos are stealing muh catalytic converters" as an argument against taking down the cameras. And meanwhile, people still don't have food, shelter, medical care, or a support network. But we spent all that money. It just blows my mind and no I'm not going to run for office to fix it. Sorry.

voz_ 4y ago
> Eventually everyone decides to play the arms race If everyone plays the arms race, and its hard to commit crime anywhere, we win? This is fundamentally a good thing. "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It is very fashionable and woke to wax poetically about services, and yea, we have serious gaps there, but if someone is going to commit a crime, they should face the consequences.
- balls187 4y ago
  Catching criminals is a game of cat and mouse. I agree-face consequences. But, it just seems as though the public is tacitly trading in freedoms for security theater, with little real benefit to society.
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    People really need to stop getting all of their societal knowledge from various iterations of Ocean’s 11.
    - balls187 4y ago
      Sorry I don’t understand your comment.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  It. doesn’t. make. crime. harder. It doesn’t _work_, dude. That’s the point. This is bullshit theater, they’re not even pretending this increases security.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It's not worth signing up to be victims of a police state either. I get that you think guilty people should suffer, but why should the innocent have their every moment tracked and their personal data handed over to third parties, the local police, and the state? We'd solve a lot more crime by putting cameras in people's homes too, but maybe let's not.
- Jochim 4y ago
  No one wins. You end up living in a police state and when you do experience crime, it'll likely be more severe. The root of systemic criminality is in the failure of society to justify why it's rules should be respected. That doesn't mean that people should "get away" with crime but it does mean that if you actually want to reduce crime, not just punish criminals, society must convince those people that lawful society is something worth participating in.
  - salawat 4y ago
    Thank you. Cripes, someone else actually bloody said it! I second it, vehemently. All punishment does is cement the us vs. them line between the wielders of the enforcement mechanism, and the people it is enforced upon. If you can't get the populace working with and alongside you it's a losing prospect. This is anathema to leadership/power hungry types, who believe they are the bearer of the One True Way, or the Anthropromorphic manifestation of Common Sense; but show me a crime spike, and I'll show you rampant loss of faith/confidence in the system as a cause, not merely a symptom. This is why "Good enough for Government work" as a perjorative is a bloody terrible thing.
  - tutorialmanager 4y ago
    The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in. The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that.
    - Jochim 4y ago
      > The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that. "Great teacher inspires inner city kids" is literally a movie trope predicated on the idea that society can, in fact, do something about that. The trope is an over-simplification of the situation but we know for a fact that when society steps in, the children of "bad parents" do much better than they would otherwise. Society in turn benefits just as much, if not more so. > The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in Prison systems in most countries are typically designed to reinforce the disillusion and lack of belonging that landed many of the prisoners there in the first place. In their current form they actively work against incentivising people that society is worth contributing to. To put it another way, we take people that society has generally treated like shit and treat them like worse shit. After a few years of this we turn around with a "surprised pikachu" face when those people don't end their sentence as model members of society. People become criminals, for the most part, they're not born that way. Dealing with criminality means dealing with the situations that give rise to it. When people's needs are met and they believe they're being treated fairly, they are much less likely to engage in acts of criminality. A society that constantly broadcasts extreme displays of wealth at those living in precarity invites only discord and strife.
jrpt 4y ago
Most criminals in the US aren’t desperately poor or anything. This isn’t like they’re steal bread to feed their hungry children. They mostly just do it because they enjoy it (thrill seeking) or think it’s a way to make more money faster and easier than a real job. I was burglarized in Palo Alto a few years ago and the suspects were caught on neighboring cameras. They were apparently just high schoolers doing it for fun. I never got my stuff back. And I wasn’t living in a fancy house or anything. It was cheap apartments and they stole my kitchen supplies and old clothing and non-expensive stuff like that.
- cogitoergofutuo 4y ago
  > Most criminals in the US aren’t desperately poor or anything (…)They mostly just do it because they enjoy it (thrill seeking)… and >…or think it’s a way to make more money faster and easier than a real job. Are contradictory statements. It is fascinating how easy it is to casually say “Criminals don’t need money, they do crime for the thrill! Or the money!” as if thrills and money are the same thing since they were said in the same breath. The person you’re responding to pointed out several factors that could influence someone to need to get money as quickly as possible. It isn’t a rebuttal to say “Those criminals don’t do crime to get money for reasons involving shelter, healthcare, or other things that could be addressed by a stronger safety net! They’re do crime to get money for… other, mysterious reasons! Perhaps the ill-gotten loot is itself seductive far beyond pedestrian causes like ‘rent’” I have met quite a few criminals in my life and none of them would fit the characterization of “A cross between Evil Knievel and the hordweard dragon Smaug”
- autoexec 4y ago
  > Most criminals in the US aren’t desperately poor or anything. They mostly just do it because they enjoy it You got a source that most criminals aren't poor?

voz_ 4y ago

> Eventually everyone decides to play the arms race If everyone plays the arms race, and its hard to commit crime anywhere, we win? This is fundamentally a good thing. "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It is very fashionable and woke to wax poetically about services, and yea, we have serious gaps there, but if someone is going to commit a crime, they should face the consequences.

balls187 4y ago
Catching criminals is a game of cat and mouse. I agree-face consequences. But, it just seems as though the public is tacitly trading in freedoms for security theater, with little real benefit to society.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  People really need to stop getting all of their societal knowledge from various iterations of Ocean’s 11.
  - balls187 4y ago
    Sorry I don’t understand your comment.
KerrAvon 4y ago
It. doesn’t. make. crime. harder. It doesn’t _work_, dude. That’s the point. This is bullshit theater, they’re not even pretending this increases security.
autoexec 4y ago
> "We" here being the hard working members of society that don't turn to crime, and would rather not be victims to it. It's not worth signing up to be victims of a police state either. I get that you think guilty people should suffer, but why should the innocent have their every moment tracked and their personal data handed over to third parties, the local police, and the state? We'd solve a lot more crime by putting cameras in people's homes too, but maybe let's not.
Jochim 4y ago
No one wins. You end up living in a police state and when you do experience crime, it'll likely be more severe. The root of systemic criminality is in the failure of society to justify why it's rules should be respected. That doesn't mean that people should "get away" with crime but it does mean that if you actually want to reduce crime, not just punish criminals, society must convince those people that lawful society is something worth participating in.
- salawat 4y ago
  Thank you. Cripes, someone else actually bloody said it! I second it, vehemently. All punishment does is cement the us vs. them line between the wielders of the enforcement mechanism, and the people it is enforced upon. If you can't get the populace working with and alongside you it's a losing prospect. This is anathema to leadership/power hungry types, who believe they are the bearer of the One True Way, or the Anthropromorphic manifestation of Common Sense; but show me a crime spike, and I'll show you rampant loss of faith/confidence in the system as a cause, not merely a symptom. This is why "Good enough for Government work" as a perjorative is a bloody terrible thing.
- tutorialmanager 4y ago
  The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in. The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that.
  - Jochim 4y ago
    > The real problem is that lots of kids have terrible parents and nothing can be done about that. "Great teacher inspires inner city kids" is literally a movie trope predicated on the idea that society can, in fact, do something about that. The trope is an over-simplification of the situation but we know for a fact that when society steps in, the children of "bad parents" do much better than they would otherwise. Society in turn benefits just as much, if not more so. > The basic idea is that if you take criminals out of lawful society and put them in prison, they might someday learn that lawful society is worth participating in Prison systems in most countries are typically designed to reinforce the disillusion and lack of belonging that landed many of the prisoners there in the first place. In their current form they actively work against incentivising people that society is worth contributing to. To put it another way, we take people that society has generally treated like shit and treat them like worse shit. After a few years of this we turn around with a "surprised pikachu" face when those people don't end their sentence as model members of society. People become criminals, for the most part, they're not born that way. Dealing with criminality means dealing with the situations that give rise to it. When people's needs are met and they believe they're being treated fairly, they are much less likely to engage in acts of criminality. A society that constantly broadcasts extreme displays of wealth at those living in precarity invites only discord and strife.

jrpt 4y ago

Most criminals in the US aren’t desperately poor or anything. This isn’t like they’re steal bread to feed their hungry children. They mostly just do it because they enjoy it (thrill seeking) or think it’s a way to make more money faster and easier than a real job. I was burglarized in Palo Alto a few years ago and the suspects were caught on neighboring cameras. They were apparently just high schoolers doing it for fun. I never got my stuff back. And I wasn’t living in a fancy house or anything. It was cheap apartments and they stole my kitchen supplies and old clothing and non-expensive stuff like that.

cogitoergofutuo 4y ago
> Most criminals in the US aren’t desperately poor or anything (…)They mostly just do it because they enjoy it (thrill seeking)… and >…or think it’s a way to make more money faster and easier than a real job. Are contradictory statements. It is fascinating how easy it is to casually say “Criminals don’t need money, they do crime for the thrill! Or the money!” as if thrills and money are the same thing since they were said in the same breath. The person you’re responding to pointed out several factors that could influence someone to need to get money as quickly as possible. It isn’t a rebuttal to say “Those criminals don’t do crime to get money for reasons involving shelter, healthcare, or other things that could be addressed by a stronger safety net! They’re do crime to get money for… other, mysterious reasons! Perhaps the ill-gotten loot is itself seductive far beyond pedestrian causes like ‘rent’” I have met quite a few criminals in my life and none of them would fit the characterization of “A cross between Evil Knievel and the hordweard dragon Smaug”
autoexec 4y ago
> Most criminals in the US aren’t desperately poor or anything. They mostly just do it because they enjoy it You got a source that most criminals aren't poor?