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3 years is a huge step up on where Android support was a few years ago, let alone 5 years. There are Android tablets and phones I've bought in the past that nev

3 years is a huge step up on where Android support was a few years ago, let alone 5 years. There are Android tablets and phones I've bought in the past that never got one update or any kind of security update, and were out of date before they were even released in terms of software. They couldn't even run the apps I'd bought them for as I'd naively assumed they'd be running the latest OS when they launched. Plenty of manufacturers also promise updates and don't deliver because they're at the mercy of Qualcomm providing driver updates. The last Nokia I had got a couple months of updates then nothing for over a year, yet was in the Android One program. Like I said: it's fine. If replacing the phone in 3 years or 5 years time is going to be a problem then perhaps you should have bought a cheaper phone and replaced more often, IMO. The cost of ownership per year assuming 3-5 years is the price of a piece of crap that gets updates for a few months to a year. By the time year 2 hits on most phones, the battery is mediocre versus what it used to be. Google has a trade-in program that gives pretty good credit towards the next device. It's a cellphone. It's not a desktop computer. They aren't built to last or assumed to last. Buy it, use it, trash or trade it in, get the next one. Sure, I wish that there was an ATX-like standard for cellphone chassis and parts, but there isn't, and the support is much better than it was. Cellphones are garbage versus what they used to be in build quality and durability, but they also do much more than they ever did. Maybe an iPhone would suit you better? Hell, I didn't even use a phone for quite a few years as I shared your sentiment, but I aged out of it and found other things to worry about, and a few hundred bucks every few years is whatever to have one less problem with something I use for a good chunk of every day. My modded ThinkPad T440p is still going strong. The missus's X201 is still going strong too. I use 30-50 year old tech elsewhere because it still works, I love the design, and/or it's easy to service. I get the sentiment.

mindslight 4y ago
Sure, Google can have some credit for improving the abjectly terrible Android lifetime into a merely bad lifetime. But keep in mind their starting point was Linux which runs on 15+ year old machines without blinking, including API and security updates. I wholeheartedly reject the narrative that cell phones should be considered throw away devices. It's not about money, and making even more e-waste by buying cheaper devices even more often is certainly not what I want. As I said, my Samsung S7 (released 2016) is perfectly fine. Solid physical condition. Battery life is fine (I continue to play games on it). Honestly I would have kept using it data-only but as far as I can tell both AT&T and T-mo have blacklisted the model by IMEI.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  I run Fedora on a ThinkPad T440p. The missus runs it on a ThinkPad X201. I hear ya. But cellphones aren't laptops, and even laptops are mostly crap, as are desktop PCs. Y'gets what y'pays for most of the time. ThinkPads can be enterprise-grade machines (if you don't buy the consumer/prosumer crap), but they certainly don't make them like they used to. The average cellphone doesn't last as long as us nerds on HN can make them last though. People end up smashing them, they wear out, or they flat-out just need an upgrade to run the latest x app or piece of hardware, or stay up to date with security vulns as a workplace mandate. Right to Repair is a step in the right direction, but maybe a "Right to Firmware/Driver Source" or similar would be a good possible next step. I get the sentiment, but the hardware's largely junk unless you're buying an iPhone, and I'm not even saying I think the iPhone is well-made or that I like the modern iPhone. Repairing the back glass now apparently requires the use of a laser. I can only laugh. Never heard of blacklisting non-stolen cellphones. I would contact your carrier for further info and report back, because if so, that's shocking.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    > Never heard of blacklisting non-stolen cellphones Well consider yourself having heard. The AT&T MVNO I was on at the time kept sending me SMSs telling me I had to upgrade, until eventually the phone went no service. I recently tried sticking a T-mo MVNO SIM in the phone, which didn't work either. You can read about this if you search for "non-VoLTE" or "3G shutdown". The S7 was a 4G phone that used LTE data and UMTS voice, so the LTE data would have continued to work without the blacklisting - in fact I think I even used it for a month or two after they shut down UMTS voice but before they forcibly kicked it off the network. > People end up smashing them, they wear out Sure, this has happened to phones I've owned. But in this case it didn't - as I've repeatedly said, I was perfectly happy with the condition of the hardware. > they flat-out just need an upgrade to run the latest x app or piece of hardware, or stay up to date with security vulns as a workplace mandate This is exactly the software issue that we're discussing, so it's not an argument. Sure, people get encouraged to just go with the flow of needless software churn, and use it as an excuse to buy a shiny new thing. We're discussing the (lack of) justification for that churn to begin with. You've shotgunned a heap of half-arguments that fall apart under examination. Replacement parts are readily available from donor phones on eBay. Google certainly has the power to dictate to Qualcomm that kernel sources must be released (per GPL2), and this is irrelevant with Tensor. Regardless of what it took to get Linux running on any given device, it can be kept running without reverse engineering. The primary reason that Google et al get away with artificially short lifetimes from software churn is that it doesn't help their bottom line to do otherwise. And so it seems the only things we can do are shame and/or legislate. And I don't see the point of detracting from that energy just because Google is slightly better than the rest of the terrible industry they had a large part in creating.
kelnos 4y ago
> If replacing the phone in 3 years or 5 years time is going to be a problem then perhaps you should have bought a cheaper phone and replaced more often That's certainly an option if your only concern is the cost of upgrades, but, in the vein of the OP, that's not at all desirable from an e-waste perspective. That's worse, in fact.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  But it's better than it was. In the past, maybe you'd never get security updates because Qualcomm wasn't guaranteed to provide the driver updates, ergo a device might not even make it to the one year mark. I bought plenty of tablets that were insecure out of the box. That is bad in terms of e-waste (and arguably not of merchantable quality, but that's a Brit-centric consumer legal issue). If you go by the assumption of 1 year becoming maybe 5, that's 5x improvement, and thus potentially 5x less e-waste. If someone uses it for 3 years then sells it or trades it on, I'm sure someone else will get it to the 5 year mark.

mindslight 4y ago

Sure, Google can have some credit for improving the abjectly terrible Android lifetime into a merely bad lifetime. But keep in mind their starting point was Linux which runs on 15+ year old machines without blinking, including API and security updates. I wholeheartedly reject the narrative that cell phones should be considered throw away devices. It's not about money, and making even more e-waste by buying cheaper devices even more often is certainly not what I want. As I said, my Samsung S7 (released 2016) is perfectly fine. Solid physical condition. Battery life is fine (I continue to play games on it). Honestly I would have kept using it data-only but as far as I can tell both AT&T and T-mo have blacklisted the model by IMEI.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
I run Fedora on a ThinkPad T440p. The missus runs it on a ThinkPad X201. I hear ya. But cellphones aren't laptops, and even laptops are mostly crap, as are desktop PCs. Y'gets what y'pays for most of the time. ThinkPads can be enterprise-grade machines (if you don't buy the consumer/prosumer crap), but they certainly don't make them like they used to. The average cellphone doesn't last as long as us nerds on HN can make them last though. People end up smashing them, they wear out, or they flat-out just need an upgrade to run the latest x app or piece of hardware, or stay up to date with security vulns as a workplace mandate. Right to Repair is a step in the right direction, but maybe a "Right to Firmware/Driver Source" or similar would be a good possible next step. I get the sentiment, but the hardware's largely junk unless you're buying an iPhone, and I'm not even saying I think the iPhone is well-made or that I like the modern iPhone. Repairing the back glass now apparently requires the use of a laser. I can only laugh. Never heard of blacklisting non-stolen cellphones. I would contact your carrier for further info and report back, because if so, that's shocking.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > Never heard of blacklisting non-stolen cellphones Well consider yourself having heard. The AT&T MVNO I was on at the time kept sending me SMSs telling me I had to upgrade, until eventually the phone went no service. I recently tried sticking a T-mo MVNO SIM in the phone, which didn't work either. You can read about this if you search for "non-VoLTE" or "3G shutdown". The S7 was a 4G phone that used LTE data and UMTS voice, so the LTE data would have continued to work without the blacklisting - in fact I think I even used it for a month or two after they shut down UMTS voice but before they forcibly kicked it off the network. > People end up smashing them, they wear out Sure, this has happened to phones I've owned. But in this case it didn't - as I've repeatedly said, I was perfectly happy with the condition of the hardware. > they flat-out just need an upgrade to run the latest x app or piece of hardware, or stay up to date with security vulns as a workplace mandate This is exactly the software issue that we're discussing, so it's not an argument. Sure, people get encouraged to just go with the flow of needless software churn, and use it as an excuse to buy a shiny new thing. We're discussing the (lack of) justification for that churn to begin with. You've shotgunned a heap of half-arguments that fall apart under examination. Replacement parts are readily available from donor phones on eBay. Google certainly has the power to dictate to Qualcomm that kernel sources must be released (per GPL2), and this is irrelevant with Tensor. Regardless of what it took to get Linux running on any given device, it can be kept running without reverse engineering. The primary reason that Google et al get away with artificially short lifetimes from software churn is that it doesn't help their bottom line to do otherwise. And so it seems the only things we can do are shame and/or legislate. And I don't see the point of detracting from that energy just because Google is slightly better than the rest of the terrible industry they had a large part in creating.

kelnos 4y ago

> If replacing the phone in 3 years or 5 years time is going to be a problem then perhaps you should have bought a cheaper phone and replaced more often That's certainly an option if your only concern is the cost of upgrades, but, in the vein of the OP, that's not at all desirable from an e-waste perspective. That's worse, in fact.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
But it's better than it was. In the past, maybe you'd never get security updates because Qualcomm wasn't guaranteed to provide the driver updates, ergo a device might not even make it to the one year mark. I bought plenty of tablets that were insecure out of the box. That is bad in terms of e-waste (and arguably not of merchantable quality, but that's a Brit-centric consumer legal issue). If you go by the assumption of 1 year becoming maybe 5, that's 5x improvement, and thus potentially 5x less e-waste. If someone uses it for 3 years then sells it or trades it on, I'm sure someone else will get it to the 5 year mark.