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FFS, how did I miss this? Considering how counter culture Vice was early on it felt quite left wing. Does every fringe political thing wrap around? In other wo

• tehjoker 3y ago
  Nope, Vice media is a capitalist corporation, so no it was never left wing. It makes sense that an edgy founder of a capitalist corp. could go far to the right, as that is acceptably within the system that preserves private wealth. Perhaps by left wing you meant liberal. There are some (very few) examples of rich people that became class traitors, Engels was one, but usually they have some distance (e.g. via inheritance, as with Engels) from how the money was made.
• zmgsabst 3y ago
  Maybe “left versus right” is too simplistic of a mental model and we obscure important information about political beliefs trying to shoehorn everything into a single, arbitrary dimension?
  • kcplate 3y ago
    Yes. We have been conditioned to think of politics as a linear thing where the sum of beliefs fit nicely in a point between a set point on the left and a set point on the right. In reality it’s so much more complex and really depends on the relative point in a more dimensional political space that you are peering at them from… For instance—I see such huge parallels between today’s progressive left and the “moral majority” types that I really can’t functionally separate them but for the gods and scriptures driving the moralities that they preach. At least from the perspective I see them from, which is probably best described as “classic liberalism”, they are essentially identical. It’s also the reason that both of those movements tended to view classical liberalism as anathematic. Their perspective seems to be is that intolerance of outside beliefs and thoughts except their own is their most important quality, so they work to suppress.
    • skinnymuch 3y ago
      Are you talking about progressive left that are socially that way or more? Morality isn’t really part of the economic left (which includes social Justice). I agree liberals and “moral majority” (which are one and the same really) are similar. Since the convo is left vs right, do you have any opinions on people on the left who aren’t liberals? They don’t sound like the two groups you discussed. I personally don’t have any of my views suppressed in a number of communities (not HN of course hah)
• fafzv 3y ago
  There is nothing counter culturish about the left wing now. If anything, right wing is the new counter culture.
  • deleted 3y ago
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• kelsolaar 3y ago
  Horseshoe Theory : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
  • omnimus 3y ago
    This implies Vice media was some kind of far leftist media company. It’s not it’s just a bit edgy and punk. I think they try stay away from politics (as much as its possible).
  • skinnymuch 3y ago
    Vice is a liberal company.
• chao- 3y ago
  I posit that the effect is real (see sibling comment about "horseshoe theory"), but that framing it as "wrap around" incorrectly centers the discussion on a single left-right axis. There are several other axes that govern how people interact with issues (personal life issues, societal issues, and politics as a subset). In my experiences, among the most common are three dispositional axes: - Is their focus on making things better, or on keeping things from getting worse? - What is their regard for institutions and/or expertise? - Are they attracted to, or turned off by, a framing that relies on scalar hyperbole: "the worst its ever been", etc.? A person can shift around "on the issues", viewed purely as left-right, while still remaining true to themself on these dispositional axes.
  • trts 3y ago
    There is a framework I recognize as similar put forward by Arnold Kling that I think of often, the Three Languages of Politics, that suggests part of what makes political discourse so often fruitless is that the primary value axes differ for three major political interest groups: Conservatives: Civilization vs. Barbarism Libertarians: Freedom vs. Coercion Progressives: Oppressors vs. the Oppressed His thesis was that polarization has been increasing because there is often no natural policy alignment across these axes, even while many would probably agree on some fundamental Western tenets of rights and justice.
    • skinnymuch 3y ago
      Does the framework cover capitalism, socialism, or the economic left? The Overton window is bigger than the three interest groups listed. The groups are all centre[-left] or right wing. There is policy alignment historically. We can look to how the Nordic countries or Mass and then America dealt with health care in modern times. The right was cool with Mass “universal healthcare”. Liberals were not. Then when Obama did what Romney did in Mass, it suddenly became a liberal viewpoint and the Overton window moved to the right. This has issues with “no natural policy alignment” imo.
      • trts 3y ago
• cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  GenX alternative subculture in North America in the 90s & early 2000s was very apolitical. It was oppositional to the mainstream but didn't really do so around 'issues' so much as aesthetics and a general hatred for the mainstream. As someone who was quite openly (far) left wing at the time, I felt very much in the minority. Yes there were anarchist political punks, etc but it wasn't really the focus. I don't recall finding VICE in the late 90s, early 2000s to be political at all. It was just snarky and sometimes funny. "Dos and Don'ts" etc. Then again, I don't really recognize what Americans call "left wing" now as "left wing."
  • omnimus 3y ago
    Exactly VICE seems to be as apolitical as they can so they can get broad audience.
  • skinnymuch 3y ago
    Yes you nailed it. There’s nothing left wing about what most people o here keep saying wrt to something like Vice
• deleted 3y ago
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• wpietri 3y ago
  I think it depends a lot on what you think of as "left wing". They were also known for "a top-down ethos of male entitlement at Vice, where women said they felt like just another party favor at an organization where partying often was an extension of the job": https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/24/vice-founders-apologize-for-allowing-a-boys-club-culture-at-the-company/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/24/vice-founders-apologize-fo...
  • nailer 3y ago
    Being sexist and toxic internally is consistent with organisations that preach gender equity.
    • skinnymuch 3y ago
      You’re not supposed to say the quiet parts out loud when you’re such a toxic person based on this statement.
      • nailer 3y ago
        Nothing to do with me. Just noticing that when a company makes loud statements about equity then they’re inevitably accused of a toxic work environment. Last notable example was npm inc a few years ago. You’ve probably noticed the same.
        • skinnymuch 3y ago
          > You’ve probably noticed the same. I notice you're the same who mistakenly provided a simplified and thus incorrect definition of reactionary. I'm not a reactionary so I'm not noticing the same. - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reactionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reactionary - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reactionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reactionary - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/reactionary https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/react... One continue name calling and referring to me as say conceited. Or find some fallacy. Instead of understanding it is not big deal but reactionary is clearly about reacting to political progress. This is what you linked to: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/reactionary_2 https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... I implore any one to check out the politics definition list there and see how generic and white washed the definitions are. I checked a few.
• nailer 3y ago
  > Does every fringe political thing wrap around? In other words if you move super far to the left, do you end up wrapping back around on the right wing? That’s how the Proud Boys were created - as a response to Antifa violence.
  • skinnymuch 3y ago
    I looked for 30 min. I found no evidence from my own searching and asking some new media acquaintances. No one can show me where Gavin and Proud Boys was started by any [far] leftist or involved any far leftists. In fact I can’t even find Vice being created by a single far leftist. I also only found one or two sources denying that Proud Boys is not [far] right wing. Including sympathizers. Do you have any knowledge on what type of [far] leftist Gavin or any Proud Boy was? Also perhaps I’m not as knowledgeable. How is it wrapping around if different people are reacting? Antifa is about anti fascism. It isn’t about being far left. Antifa isn’t only anarchist or communist. Any information you or any one else has would help me a ton. Id love to add this topic to my substack. But I don’t want to repeat what you wrote without it making sense.
    • nailer 3y ago
      > No one can show me where Gavin and Proud Boys was started by any [far] leftist or involved any far leftists. Nobody is claiming this. It seems like you didn’t read the comment you’re replying to. > Antifa is about anti fascism. And the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a democratic republic run by its people. Sometimes things have a meaning that goes beyond how they would like to be perceived.
      • skinnymuch 3y ago
        > other words if you move super far to the left, do you end up wrapping back around on the right wing? > That’s how the Proud Boys were created - as a response to Antifa violence. You quoted something talking about wrapping around. However you talked about being reactionary. Being reactionary isn’t wrapping around any more. It goes one way since the left and right wing paradigms were established in the 1700s (or since power/hierarchies first formed between people). Reactionary is reacting to power and tradition. Which is what antifa is. However it’s not what Proud Boys are. It’s a negative thing aka reactionary create a powerful reaction or response to a leftist decentralized minor movement. I have studied political science and helped on a paper on reactionaries so I got carried away assuming you meant reactionaries can go from far left to far right or even talking about reactionaries. Also I assumed you were talking politically in a political discussion. > Sometimes things have a meaning that goes beyond how they would like to be perceived. And sometimes they don’t have meaning beyond. The example you gave is correct, yes. Also what does antifa mean beyond anti fascist and what I described above? — > Also perhaps I’m not as knowledgeable? How is it wrapping around if different people are reacting. Antifa is about anti fascism. It isn’t about being far left. Antifa isn’t only anarchist or communist. You didn’t respond to any of this. I wrote 3 lines about antifa. You responded to one. I also specifically asked: > …How is it wrapping My entire issue and explanation was about the way you wrote what you wrote. Too much vagueness when responding to wrapping around being the discussion. While you didn’t respond to any questions or concerns. I have revolutionary optimistic however so I still give you the respect of a full laid out response.
• skinnymuch 3y ago
  There was nothing fringe with any one on the left. Vice is center left media. There’s nothing to wrap around to when it’s mostly centrists