4 ms·

Public, thus paid by everybody through taxes. Yet, for some reason, it can only be taken advantage of by people who can afford to pay the ticket. Nevermind th

by snvzz 4y ago

Public, thus paid by everybody through taxes. Yet, for some reason, it can only be taken advantage of by people who can afford to pay the ticket. Nevermind the fact having the ticket system in the first place does cost money.

EngManagerIsMe 4y ago
Agreed. This is actually a "why public systems fail" critique approaching from the left -- we assume systems need a cost to function correctly. For something like transit, collecting fares involves: 1) Systems and equipment to issue and collect fares -- boxes, kiosks, scanners, currency handling, staff to collect and deposit currency, arrangements with payment providers, educational materials about paying fares, websites with instructions on how to pay fares (often in multiple languages) 2) Systems to enforce fare payment -- humans, typically, to police the fares 3) Systems to analyze fare rates -- are fares too low, too high, are they being paid at the correct rates, do we need to publish new content on how much fares are changing this year 4) Queues to pay fares -- entering a bus or train requires a turnstile, tap, or other impediment that slows access 5) Systems to ensure everyone has access -- either fares price out the poorest, or we provide means for the poor to get reduced and free fares. Provide systems for workers to get fares subsidized through their workplaces. These systems are really inefficient. I mean, they might be run efficiently, but their existence is itself an inefficiency. If we believe transit is useful and valuable, we could simply pay for it once in taxes. Cutting out all the fare maintenance systems would save a huge amount of money, which could be spent on maintenance, comfort, cleaning, additional routes, etc. and the experience would be much nicer (hop on/hop off whenever you need).
- lispm 4y ago
  > entering a bus or train requires a turnstile, tap, or other impediment that slows access In Hamburg, where I live, there is nothing like that.
  - EngManagerIsMe 4y ago
    Hamburg's busses don't have coin boxes or sell tickets/fares? You don't have any mechanism that requires swiping a card, tapping a device, showing a card/ticket to an operator, or otherwise proving you have, in fact, purchased a fare? In Seattle, we tap our cards on something that looks like this: https://seattletransitblog.com/2011/06/28/dont-tap-orca-here/ https://seattletransitblog.com/2011/06/28/dont-tap-orca-here... It's pretty quick, but on the busiest bus routes it slows things down. Edit: Reading up, it looks like they don't really have those things, and rely on a combination of very infrequent inspectors (which do slow things and cost money) and the honor system.
    - thecopy 4y ago
      In Switzerland there are no gates or a need for "showing a card/ticket to an operator, or otherwise proving you have, in fact, purchased a fare". You just enter the bus/train/tram vehicle. Maybe a ticket controllant comes, maybe not (most often they dont come and check) EDIT: To get a ticket you simple open the app and "check in". When you leave the transport you open the app and "check out". At the end of the day the system calculated the cheapest ticket for you based on that 24h period. This works across the entire country. From local buses to high speed intercity rail
      - snvzz 4y ago
        So you need a "compatible smartphone" to travel? That's messed up.
        thecopy 4y ago
        There are also ticket machines at almost every stop, if you dont have a smartphone. You can pay with cash, card, and i believe with Bitcoin too
        snvzz 4y ago
        I'd rather an IC card such as the SUICA Japan has.
lispm 4y ago
For people who can't afford the ticket, there can be special prices. For example in my hometown, people with low-income pay less. Kids from low-income families pay nothing.
- snvzz 4y ago
  That'd be specially wrong, as high income already pay more taxes, which more strongly fund this transport system.
  - lispm 4y ago
    It's called 'Social'. Those who are stronger contribute to the society more.
    - snvzz 4y ago
      Or leave the country, because they're treated badly despite their higher contributions.
      - abricot 4y ago
        Being taxed higher doesn't make everyone feel as they're treated bad. Just so you hear another perspective.
        snvzz 4y ago
        Taxes is one thing. Making us buy a ticket to use transport, while the poor uses it for free would be on another level. Public transport is already funded through taxes. We already paid for it.
        lispm 4y ago
        > Public transport is already funded through taxes. We already paid for it. In Germany the local public transport is only partially funded by taxes. Tickets / Taxes is roughly 50 / 50. The Autobahn is mostly funded by taxes.

by snvzz 4y ago

EngManagerIsMe 4y ago

Agreed. This is actually a "why public systems fail" critique approaching from the left -- we assume systems need a cost to function correctly. For something like transit, collecting fares involves: 1) Systems and equipment to issue and collect fares -- boxes, kiosks, scanners, currency handling, staff to collect and deposit currency, arrangements with payment providers, educational materials about paying fares, websites with instructions on how to pay fares (often in multiple languages) 2) Systems to enforce fare payment -- humans, typically, to police the fares 3) Systems to analyze fare rates -- are fares too low, too high, are they being paid at the correct rates, do we need to publish new content on how much fares are changing this year 4) Queues to pay fares -- entering a bus or train requires a turnstile, tap, or other impediment that slows access 5) Systems to ensure everyone has access -- either fares price out the poorest, or we provide means for the poor to get reduced and free fares. Provide systems for workers to get fares subsidized through their workplaces. These systems are really inefficient. I mean, they might be run efficiently, but their existence is itself an inefficiency. If we believe transit is useful and valuable, we could simply pay for it once in taxes. Cutting out all the fare maintenance systems would save a huge amount of money, which could be spent on maintenance, comfort, cleaning, additional routes, etc. and the experience would be much nicer (hop on/hop off whenever you need).

lispm 4y ago
> entering a bus or train requires a turnstile, tap, or other impediment that slows access In Hamburg, where I live, there is nothing like that.
- EngManagerIsMe 4y ago
  Hamburg's busses don't have coin boxes or sell tickets/fares? You don't have any mechanism that requires swiping a card, tapping a device, showing a card/ticket to an operator, or otherwise proving you have, in fact, purchased a fare? In Seattle, we tap our cards on something that looks like this: https://seattletransitblog.com/2011/06/28/dont-tap-orca-here/ https://seattletransitblog.com/2011/06/28/dont-tap-orca-here... It's pretty quick, but on the busiest bus routes it slows things down. Edit: Reading up, it looks like they don't really have those things, and rely on a combination of very infrequent inspectors (which do slow things and cost money) and the honor system.
  - thecopy 4y ago
    In Switzerland there are no gates or a need for "showing a card/ticket to an operator, or otherwise proving you have, in fact, purchased a fare". You just enter the bus/train/tram vehicle. Maybe a ticket controllant comes, maybe not (most often they dont come and check) EDIT: To get a ticket you simple open the app and "check in". When you leave the transport you open the app and "check out". At the end of the day the system calculated the cheapest ticket for you based on that 24h period. This works across the entire country. From local buses to high speed intercity rail
    - snvzz 4y ago
      So you need a "compatible smartphone" to travel? That's messed up.
      - thecopy 4y ago
        There are also ticket machines at almost every stop, if you dont have a smartphone. You can pay with cash, card, and i believe with Bitcoin too
        snvzz 4y ago
        I'd rather an IC card such as the SUICA Japan has.

lispm 4y ago

For people who can't afford the ticket, there can be special prices. For example in my hometown, people with low-income pay less. Kids from low-income families pay nothing.

snvzz 4y ago
That'd be specially wrong, as high income already pay more taxes, which more strongly fund this transport system.
- lispm 4y ago
  It's called 'Social'. Those who are stronger contribute to the society more.
  - snvzz 4y ago
    Or leave the country, because they're treated badly despite their higher contributions.
    - abricot 4y ago
      Being taxed higher doesn't make everyone feel as they're treated bad. Just so you hear another perspective.
      - snvzz 4y ago
        Taxes is one thing. Making us buy a ticket to use transport, while the poor uses it for free would be on another level. Public transport is already funded through taxes. We already paid for it.
        lispm 4y ago
        > Public transport is already funded through taxes. We already paid for it. In Germany the local public transport is only partially funded by taxes. Tickets / Taxes is roughly 50 / 50. The Autobahn is mostly funded by taxes.