4 ms·

It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4

It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. As you note with the pricing complexity, there is just a wide divergence of views and interests on how to run a transit system. And I get it; I think there are legitimate reasons people picked those different pricing systems. But they figured out how to overcome that so I can have one card for all of that. And even better, one card that is now my phone. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did, this is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact.

inferiorhuman 4y ago
I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area. For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact. The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks. Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.
- wpietri 4y ago
  > We didn't/don't need a single payment system I disagree. I did need a single payment system. I am glad I have it. I do not need a single unified fare policy. I understand that you want different things. Which is fine! But it's frustrating to me that you are trying to negate my complimenting some people who worked hard and made things better just because they didn't also do the things you want. Things, I'm sure, many of them also wanted.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    But it's frustrating to me that you are trying to negate my complimenting some people who worked hard and made things better just because they didn't also do the things you want. Funding public transit is a zero-sum game. TransLink/Clipper was a bloated giveaway to military contractors that left the Bay Area with a ridiculously flawed implementation. That's money that could've been better spent elsewhere (e.g. electrifying Caltrain). It wasn't state of the art in 2006 and it's sure as shit not in 2023. My issue is that TransLink/Clipper isn't something that should be celebrated. This isn't grade school where you're congratulated for your participation, the actual results matter. Worst of all TransLink/Clipper didn't actually solve the ticket problem. You still have Muni and BART pushing their own proprietary ticketing solutions. Honestly I don't particularly care about a single fare system as the last time I did a big multi county trip was around the time TransLink was being rolled out. Yeah it was neat to be able to use an RFID card on some of the systems, but that didn't make up for huge gaps in service. TransLink/Clipper merely put a few drops of CA glue on a gaping wound. Edit: To be fair I think that electronic ticketing is a good idea, but it needs to be part of an overall simplification of Bay Area transit. On its own (the way it is now) it's a marginal benefit – and now that transit agencies have absolved themselves of any responsibility Cubic's customer support sucks.
callalex 4y ago
Apparently it’s time for a reminder that the flag/downmod button is absolutely not a disagree button. This comment definitely contributes to the conversation.

inferiorhuman 4y ago

I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area. For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact. The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks. Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.

wpietri 4y ago
> We didn't/don't need a single payment system I disagree. I did need a single payment system. I am glad I have it. I do not need a single unified fare policy. I understand that you want different things. Which is fine! But it's frustrating to me that you are trying to negate my complimenting some people who worked hard and made things better just because they didn't also do the things you want. Things, I'm sure, many of them also wanted.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  But it's frustrating to me that you are trying to negate my complimenting some people who worked hard and made things better just because they didn't also do the things you want. Funding public transit is a zero-sum game. TransLink/Clipper was a bloated giveaway to military contractors that left the Bay Area with a ridiculously flawed implementation. That's money that could've been better spent elsewhere (e.g. electrifying Caltrain). It wasn't state of the art in 2006 and it's sure as shit not in 2023. My issue is that TransLink/Clipper isn't something that should be celebrated. This isn't grade school where you're congratulated for your participation, the actual results matter. Worst of all TransLink/Clipper didn't actually solve the ticket problem. You still have Muni and BART pushing their own proprietary ticketing solutions. Honestly I don't particularly care about a single fare system as the last time I did a big multi county trip was around the time TransLink was being rolled out. Yeah it was neat to be able to use an RFID card on some of the systems, but that didn't make up for huge gaps in service. TransLink/Clipper merely put a few drops of CA glue on a gaping wound. Edit: To be fair I think that electronic ticketing is a good idea, but it needs to be part of an overall simplification of Bay Area transit. On its own (the way it is now) it's a marginal benefit – and now that transit agencies have absolved themselves of any responsibility Cubic's customer support sucks.

callalex 4y ago

Apparently it’s time for a reminder that the flag/downmod button is absolutely not a disagree button. This comment definitely contributes to the conversation.