3 ms·

The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. No, no they really didn't. They spent millions rebranding it, there is (was?) a huge lag between adding valu

The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. No, no they really didn't. They spent millions rebranding it, there is (was?) a huge lag between adding value and posting the value depending on how you added value. The original card readers were incredibly unreliable, and because Clipper/TransLink did absolutely nothing to unify* the fare structure across the twenty-four different systems you could be set up for a nasty encounter with a pop cop because you couldn't tag on or get charged the max fare when you can't tap off. Been there, done that. BART did their best to make a fantastic mess too and, at least according to their web site, they still only sell paper tickets at SFO. For whatever reason the three other vendors at SFO do sell plastic cards. Because three additional vendors isn't confusing at all. * Some systems are flat rate (Muni, Golden Gate Ferry, VTA), some are zone based (Caltrain, Golden Gate Transit, Marin Transit), and some are distance based (BART), SamTrans has a flat rate depending on the type of bus you're on. Some systems are proof of payment (Muni), some use turnstiles (BART), some are partially proof-of-payment (AC Transit). And some (AC Transit, Muni) still maintain their own proprietary mobile payment systems. It's still a fucking mess.

wpietri 4y ago
It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. As you note with the pricing complexity, there is just a wide divergence of views and interests on how to run a transit system. And I get it; I think there are legitimate reasons people picked those different pricing systems. But they figured out how to overcome that so I can have one card for all of that. And even better, one card that is now my phone. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did, this is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area. For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact. The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks. Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    > We didn't/don't need a single payment system I disagree. I did need a single payment system. I am glad I have it. I do not need a single unified fare policy. I understand that you want different things. Which is fine! But it's frustrating to me that you are trying to negate my complimenting some people who worked hard and made things better just because they didn't also do the things you want. Things, I'm sure, many of them also wanted.
    - 4y ago
wkat4242 4y ago
> Clipper/TransLink I wonder if this company is related to the TransLink which is the one running the OV Chipkaart in the Netherlands? https://www.translink.nl/ https://www.translink.nl/ This is also a really poor system, it took years to implement and the various services never integrated properly. They all have to have their own portals and if you forget to scan one you're screwed and have to physically go back. The card can't be put on a phone and can't even be scanned for the credit level in the app (you can view it online but it's 24 hours old which is totally useless). Also it was cracked 3 months after being rolled out because they used older mifare cards with known flaws, which had been on the market for 10 years. They are working on some new thing now using credit cards which will probably also suck :P
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  OV-chipkaart is actually a joint venture between NS, Connexxion, GVB, HTM and RET (all various public transport operators). The system I like is the London Oyster-derived one, which New York MTA is now also using. It has the advantage of supporting contactless and NFC payments out of the box.
ben0x539 4y ago
> there is (was?) a huge lag between adding value and posting the value depending on how you added value. There is months worth of "pending" passes on my clipper card and neither some Clipper support number I called nor the poor guy in the booth at the local BART station could tell me how to activate them (and also not some people on Reddit and my public transit using friends, of course). It's obviously not done by using either BART or buses or SF Muni, or tagging the card against the insert-coin machines at the station, because, you know, I've done all of that a bunch of times since this started being an issue. Most of the pending passes expired by now. I'd be more upset about this if I had paid for them with actual money and not some employer based commute benefit since I haven't exactly commuted regularly since the pandemic started.

wpietri 4y ago

It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. As you note with the pricing complexity, there is just a wide divergence of views and interests on how to run a transit system. And I get it; I think there are legitimate reasons people picked those different pricing systems. But they figured out how to overcome that so I can have one card for all of that. And even better, one card that is now my phone. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did, this is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact.

inferiorhuman 4y ago
I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area. For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact. The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks. Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.
- wpietri 4y ago
  > We didn't/don't need a single payment system I disagree. I did need a single payment system. I am glad I have it. I do not need a single unified fare policy. I understand that you want different things. Which is fine! But it's frustrating to me that you are trying to negate my complimenting some people who worked hard and made things better just because they didn't also do the things you want. Things, I'm sure, many of them also wanted.
  - 4y ago

wkat4242 4y ago

> Clipper/TransLink I wonder if this company is related to the TransLink which is the one running the OV Chipkaart in the Netherlands? https://www.translink.nl/ https://www.translink.nl/ This is also a really poor system, it took years to implement and the various services never integrated properly. They all have to have their own portals and if you forget to scan one you're screwed and have to physically go back. The card can't be put on a phone and can't even be scanned for the credit level in the app (you can view it online but it's 24 hours old which is totally useless). Also it was cracked 3 months after being rolled out because they used older mifare cards with known flaws, which had been on the market for 10 years. They are working on some new thing now using credit cards which will probably also suck :P

bobthepanda 4y ago
OV-chipkaart is actually a joint venture between NS, Connexxion, GVB, HTM and RET (all various public transport operators). The system I like is the London Oyster-derived one, which New York MTA is now also using. It has the advantage of supporting contactless and NFC payments out of the box.

ben0x539 4y ago

> there is (was?) a huge lag between adding value and posting the value depending on how you added value. There is months worth of "pending" passes on my clipper card and neither some Clipper support number I called nor the poor guy in the booth at the local BART station could tell me how to activate them (and also not some people on Reddit and my public transit using friends, of course). It's obviously not done by using either BART or buses or SF Muni, or tagging the card against the insert-coin machines at the station, because, you know, I've done all of that a bunch of times since this started being an issue. Most of the pending passes expired by now. I'd be more upset about this if I had paid for them with actual money and not some employer based commute benefit since I haven't exactly commuted regularly since the pandemic started.