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Exactly. The new ticket is an excellent example of when national government can be superior to more local government: when the national government forces coord

Exactly. The new ticket is an excellent example of when national government can be superior to more local government: when the national government forces coordination to solve fragmentation problems, where local agencies lacked the...motivation to solve things on their own. On a technical level, it was always possible for different transit agencies to cooperate to simplify things for consumers, but they didn't, and likely never would, at least not on this level. A complex system per locality can still work okay for local residents; and if it's painful for visitors, well, visitors don't vote, and it's not the kind of thing that's likely to kill tourism.

wpietri 4y ago
Which reminds me to give a shout-out to the Clipper card. The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. 24 different systems, all of which use the same card: https://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/where-to-use.html https://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/where-to-use.html And they have now expanded that card-based system to include a mobile app, Google Pay, and Apple Pay, so now I just tap my phone and I'm all set.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yeah, not as much in the Bay Area these days, but the Clipper card is a huge improvement over the previous system. And I imagie by the time I eventually run down my Clipper balance I'll be fine with my phone.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    It's been a while since I set it up, but I'm pretty sure that setting up Clipper on Google Pay (or Google Wallet or whatever it is) is using my old Clipper balance. So you might be able to swap it over now and have it ready to go for your next trip.
  - andromeduck 4y ago
    They not to keep too much of a balance on any one card. It's something $50 and a 2+ hour wait one the phone to transfer balances between cards IIRC.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. No, no they really didn't. They spent millions rebranding it, there is (was?) a huge lag between adding value and posting the value depending on how you added value. The original card readers were incredibly unreliable, and because Clipper/TransLink did absolutely nothing to unify* the fare structure across the twenty-four different systems you could be set up for a nasty encounter with a pop cop because you couldn't tag on or get charged the max fare when you can't tap off. Been there, done that. BART did their best to make a fantastic mess too and, at least according to their web site, they still only sell paper tickets at SFO. For whatever reason the three other vendors at SFO do sell plastic cards. Because three additional vendors isn't confusing at all. * Some systems are flat rate (Muni, Golden Gate Ferry, VTA), some are zone based (Caltrain, Golden Gate Transit, Marin Transit), and some are distance based (BART), SamTrans has a flat rate depending on the type of bus you're on. Some systems are proof of payment (Muni), some use turnstiles (BART), some are partially proof-of-payment (AC Transit). And some (AC Transit, Muni) still maintain their own proprietary mobile payment systems. It's still a fucking mess.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. As you note with the pricing complexity, there is just a wide divergence of views and interests on how to run a transit system. And I get it; I think there are legitimate reasons people picked those different pricing systems. But they figured out how to overcome that so I can have one card for all of that. And even better, one card that is now my phone. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did, this is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area. For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact. The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks. Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.
- raffraffraff 4y ago
  Ireland is getting there, with the Leap card. It works on city rail / trams and most buses including those run by private firms, operating expenses routes to major towns. Unfortunately our major rail lines don't accept it :( but that may be due to the need to provide seat bookings.
- gsa 4y ago
  Clipper was an awful experience for a non-American like me when I visited last year. I couldn't install the mobile app (the app listing is region locked to the US). I couldn't set it up on Google Pay either (the Google Pay offerings were also region locked). I then spent half an hour trying to purchase a physical card from a machine which refused to accept 4 different cards I tried (credit and debit both). In the end, I could only purchase it with an American card that I borrowed from someone. Compare that to modern public transport systems in many parts of the world, where you can simply check in and out with a bank card. No separate purchase needed.
roamerz 4y ago
Agreed. Another much needed example would be nationwide reciprocity for concealed carry firearms. It’s too easy to be on the wrong side of the law when crossing state lines and the regulatory nuances are difficult to understand state to state.
- jameshart 4y ago
  It seems like there is a very easy way to remain on the right side of concealed carry laws, which is to simply not carry a concealed weapon. If you want to do so, familiarizing yourself with the laws as you cross state lines is the very least you can do. Demanding reciprocity is like saying ‘I should be able to turn right on red lights in NYC because my car has Jersey plates’.
  - firearmanon76 4y ago
    It seems like there is a very easy way to remain the right side of $SOME_LAWS, which is to simply not commit crimes in whatever region you travel. If you want to do so, familiarizing yourself with the laws as you cross state lines is the very least you can do. Demanding reciprocity is like saying ‘I should be able to do $SOMETHING_WHICH_VARIES_IN_ILLEGALITY_BY_REGION.’ Now insert any other topic: abortion, weed use, transgenderism, human rights, etc. Just because it’s not your pet issue, doesn’t mean it’s not utterly asinine to accidentally end up on the wrong side of the law due to sheer happenstance — all within the same country. I would rather be deported and barred from entering a certain state in which I carry out something perfectly legal in my home state, but is illegal in the former state — rather than suffering at the hands of a heavy-handed and unempathetic justice system.
prawn 4y ago
Probably an advantage many places would have over somewhere like the US which is quite fragmented and struggles to consistently coordinate in solving broad problems. I always remember just 2-3 years ago, driving onto a toll road in the eastern USA and there was an attendant at the booth. You paid them in notes/coins, and the attendant got the coins in their hand, leant out of their box and deposited them in a payment slot to raise the boom gate. I'm sure there was some rationale, but it was pretty bizarre.
- jcranmer 4y ago
  That's not really a coordination problem, that's just a toll road that's not yet moved to all-electronic tolling. Of course, toll roads in the US do provide a coordination problem, and that's in the existence of noncompatible electronic toll systems. You have essentially three islands of interoperability in the US: the Northeast and Midwest are all using E-ZPass, the Southeast has some interoperability, and Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas all have a compatible system, with several other states having systems interoperable with no one else. There actually was a law passed in 2012 that required all the toll systems to be compatible by 2016, but obviously, we're 7 years past that deadline and all that happened was Minnesota, North Carolina, and Florida joined E-ZPass as well (and Georgia is coming soon™ for a few years now).
  - prawn 4y ago
    Yes, bit of a mixture. Sorry, I should've mentioned that (from memory) it was because they didn't have banknote readers or credit card payment and the US is still using dollar bills. So unless you had a bucket of very low denomination coins, you had to pay a physical person to then convert to coins and reach around to deposit them. I once used a toll bridge in the Eastern US that had no indication of payment options (outside of a pass like the one you mentioned), no lane to escape once it was clear you had no alternatives, and then no method of paying the toll online after the fact. The only option I had was to wait to be issued a charge via the rental agency ($30+) and pay that once back in Australia.
    - ghaff 4y ago
barbazoo 4y ago
> On a technical level, it was always possible for different transit agencies to cooperate to simplify things for consumers, but they didn't, and likely never would, at least not on this level In Germany that did happen, for sure. I used to live in the area between Mainz and Frankfurt and the multiple public transport authorities (RMV, MVB, RNN etc.) worked together to better support the transitional zones.

wpietri 4y ago

Which reminds me to give a shout-out to the Clipper card. The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. 24 different systems, all of which use the same card: https://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/where-to-use.html https://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/where-to-use.html And they have now expanded that card-based system to include a mobile app, Google Pay, and Apple Pay, so now I just tap my phone and I'm all set.

ghaff 4y ago
Yeah, not as much in the Bay Area these days, but the Clipper card is a huge improvement over the previous system. And I imagie by the time I eventually run down my Clipper balance I'll be fine with my phone.
- wpietri 4y ago
  It's been a while since I set it up, but I'm pretty sure that setting up Clipper on Google Pay (or Google Wallet or whatever it is) is using my old Clipper balance. So you might be able to swap it over now and have it ready to go for your next trip.
- andromeduck 4y ago
  They not to keep too much of a balance on any one card. It's something $50 and a 2+ hour wait one the phone to transfer balances between cards IIRC.
inferiorhuman 4y ago
The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. No, no they really didn't. They spent millions rebranding it, there is (was?) a huge lag between adding value and posting the value depending on how you added value. The original card readers were incredibly unreliable, and because Clipper/TransLink did absolutely nothing to unify* the fare structure across the twenty-four different systems you could be set up for a nasty encounter with a pop cop because you couldn't tag on or get charged the max fare when you can't tap off. Been there, done that. BART did their best to make a fantastic mess too and, at least according to their web site, they still only sell paper tickets at SFO. For whatever reason the three other vendors at SFO do sell plastic cards. Because three additional vendors isn't confusing at all. * Some systems are flat rate (Muni, Golden Gate Ferry, VTA), some are zone based (Caltrain, Golden Gate Transit, Marin Transit), and some are distance based (BART), SamTrans has a flat rate depending on the type of bus you're on. Some systems are proof of payment (Muni), some use turnstiles (BART), some are partially proof-of-payment (AC Transit). And some (AC Transit, Muni) still maintain their own proprietary mobile payment systems. It's still a fucking mess.
- wpietri 4y ago
  It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. As you note with the pricing complexity, there is just a wide divergence of views and interests on how to run a transit system. And I get it; I think there are legitimate reasons people picked those different pricing systems. But they figured out how to overcome that so I can have one card for all of that. And even better, one card that is now my phone. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did, this is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that. If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it ended up the way it did The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area. For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact. The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks. Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.
raffraffraff 4y ago
Ireland is getting there, with the Leap card. It works on city rail / trams and most buses including those run by private firms, operating expenses routes to major towns. Unfortunately our major rail lines don't accept it :( but that may be due to the need to provide seat bookings.
gsa 4y ago
Clipper was an awful experience for a non-American like me when I visited last year. I couldn't install the mobile app (the app listing is region locked to the US). I couldn't set it up on Google Pay either (the Google Pay offerings were also region locked). I then spent half an hour trying to purchase a physical card from a machine which refused to accept 4 different cards I tried (credit and debit both). In the end, I could only purchase it with an American card that I borrowed from someone. Compare that to modern public transport systems in many parts of the world, where you can simply check in and out with a bank card. No separate purchase needed.

roamerz 4y ago

Agreed. Another much needed example would be nationwide reciprocity for concealed carry firearms. It’s too easy to be on the wrong side of the law when crossing state lines and the regulatory nuances are difficult to understand state to state.

jameshart 4y ago
It seems like there is a very easy way to remain on the right side of concealed carry laws, which is to simply not carry a concealed weapon. If you want to do so, familiarizing yourself with the laws as you cross state lines is the very least you can do. Demanding reciprocity is like saying ‘I should be able to turn right on red lights in NYC because my car has Jersey plates’.
- firearmanon76 4y ago
  It seems like there is a very easy way to remain the right side of $SOME_LAWS, which is to simply not commit crimes in whatever region you travel. If you want to do so, familiarizing yourself with the laws as you cross state lines is the very least you can do. Demanding reciprocity is like saying ‘I should be able to do $SOMETHING_WHICH_VARIES_IN_ILLEGALITY_BY_REGION.’ Now insert any other topic: abortion, weed use, transgenderism, human rights, etc. Just because it’s not your pet issue, doesn’t mean it’s not utterly asinine to accidentally end up on the wrong side of the law due to sheer happenstance — all within the same country. I would rather be deported and barred from entering a certain state in which I carry out something perfectly legal in my home state, but is illegal in the former state — rather than suffering at the hands of a heavy-handed and unempathetic justice system.

prawn 4y ago

Probably an advantage many places would have over somewhere like the US which is quite fragmented and struggles to consistently coordinate in solving broad problems. I always remember just 2-3 years ago, driving onto a toll road in the eastern USA and there was an attendant at the booth. You paid them in notes/coins, and the attendant got the coins in their hand, leant out of their box and deposited them in a payment slot to raise the boom gate. I'm sure there was some rationale, but it was pretty bizarre.

jcranmer 4y ago
That's not really a coordination problem, that's just a toll road that's not yet moved to all-electronic tolling. Of course, toll roads in the US do provide a coordination problem, and that's in the existence of noncompatible electronic toll systems. You have essentially three islands of interoperability in the US: the Northeast and Midwest are all using E-ZPass, the Southeast has some interoperability, and Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas all have a compatible system, with several other states having systems interoperable with no one else. There actually was a law passed in 2012 that required all the toll systems to be compatible by 2016, but obviously, we're 7 years past that deadline and all that happened was Minnesota, North Carolina, and Florida joined E-ZPass as well (and Georgia is coming soon™ for a few years now).
- prawn 4y ago
  Yes, bit of a mixture. Sorry, I should've mentioned that (from memory) it was because they didn't have banknote readers or credit card payment and the US is still using dollar bills. So unless you had a bucket of very low denomination coins, you had to pay a physical person to then convert to coins and reach around to deposit them. I once used a toll bridge in the Eastern US that had no indication of payment options (outside of a pass like the one you mentioned), no lane to escape once it was clear you had no alternatives, and then no method of paying the toll online after the fact. The only option I had was to wait to be issued a charge via the rental agency ($30+) and pay that once back in Australia.
  - ghaff 4y ago

barbazoo 4y ago

> On a technical level, it was always possible for different transit agencies to cooperate to simplify things for consumers, but they didn't, and likely never would, at least not on this level In Germany that did happen, for sure. I used to live in the area between Mainz and Frankfurt and the multiple public transport authorities (RMV, MVB, RNN etc.) worked together to better support the transitional zones.