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I encourage you (barring safety concerns) to travel to countries whose governments are considered illiberal. Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Ru

I encourage you (barring safety concerns) to travel to countries whose governments are considered illiberal. Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Russia, China, Turkmenistan, Brunei. You learn a lot about how the western media tends to exaggerate for political ends.

catiopatio 3y ago
No, you learn a lot about how illiberal governments treat foreign visitors from wealthy western countries, and how they leverage their power to control what you as a tourist see and hear. The first country you list is the DPRK, who are famed for carefully stage-managing any visit by western tourists. If you want an honest view of those places, you have to speak with people who aren’t risking their lives or livelihoods if they tell you the truth.
- janalsncm 3y ago
  North Korea is an exception, since it’s pretty hard to talk to actual locals. Having lived in one of those illiberal countries for a while (China) I could clearly see how the US media distorted everything, reduced Chinese people to a monolith, downplayed or simply ignored all of the genuinely good things happening, and took every opportunity to highlight the negatives. It is to the point where every positive, interesting, or beautiful thing is reflexively shot down and dismissed.
  - mannerheim 3y ago
    Maybe you should have gone to China last year or the year before to enjoy the authentic Chinese experience of living in a cage without food because grocery shopping was verboten.
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      With sufficient repetition, propaganda embeds itself into a person’s core belief system. This makes it self-replicating in ways that no state alone has the resources to accomplish. Very quickly when people travel (even if within their own country), they realize that their worldview has been shaped by what others want them to see. Maybe it is a benign travel ad that crops out the favela in the background, maybe it is genuinely lovely people colored as backwards or belligerent. There’s a reason someone has chosen to post that video or show you that picture.
      - mannerheim 3y ago
        Oh, I've been to China many times. Enough times to appreciate not having been born there. Western media about China, while somewhat one-sided, isn't particularly unfair in my experience.
        janalsncm 3y ago
        You and I must have different definitions of “unfair” if being one-sided isn’t at odds with fairness.
        mannerheim 3y ago
        For example, I could say that Mao ordered the killing of all of China's sparrows, leading to a massive famine. Is it one-sided to not mention that this was under the mistaken belief that the sparrows were eating all of the food? Maybe. I don't think it's unfair, though. It was idiotic and it had disastrous consequences. One could also mention that the one-child policy was kept in place for years after China's looming demographic issues became apparent, and the silliness of replacing it first with a two-child, and then a three-child policy before its abolition. Perhaps it would be one-sided to not mention the massive bureaucracy of the family planning commission consisting of millions of workers at both the central and local government levels who would have to find other work without it (of which I even have family who used to coerce women into getting abortions), but I don't think that makes it any better. Or ghost cities, which appear in Western media, but rarely mentioning that most of the apartments in these cities end up getting bought because of a real estate bubble in which Chinese citizens pour their savings into buying empty apartments in empty cities. It is 'one-sided' perhaps to not mention that the apartments have owners, but it is factually true that they are empty and the ghost cities exist. Is Western media sometimes unfair? Sure. The BRI gets painted as a debt trap, but the reality is the projects really are intended to be profitable. Will travelling to China help with that? I don't see why, since the BRI is investment in countries outside of China. The biggest misconception most Westerners have, though, is that they are under the illusion that the Chinese are yearning to be free from their oppressive government. And perhaps that is the 'distortion' you are thinking of. Is this a result of the media? Perhaps. But in my opinion, it is a factor of Westerners implicitly believing that all people are just like them, when in reality tyranny is only possible because the people who live under it accept it. Every nation gets the government it deserves.
    - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
      This is exhibit A of how the media in the US and Europe misrepresent China. The fact that you think this is how things were perfectly illustrates the problem. If zero-CoVID had really meant endless lockdowns, Chinese people wouldn't have put up with the policy for nearly 3 years. There were lockdowns in China, but they were limited in time, and before mid-2022, they were relatively rare (as in, nobody I knew was subject to one after CoVID was eliminated in China in March-April 2020). For most of 2020-21, life in China was more normal than in the US and Europe.
      - mannerheim 3y ago
        > endless lockdowns Didn't say that. It's a fact that some parts of China were locked down for months, and that people were going hungry because they couldn't get food. That was all over Chinese social media.
        DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
        Some tiny border towns were. Long lockdowns of major cities were very rare: Shanghai (2 months), Xi'an (a few weeks), and then the list gets pretty thin. There were sporadic lockdowns, but nothing like what one would imagine if, say, CNN were one's only source of information.
        mannerheim 3y ago
        IOW nothing I said was wrong.
        DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
        > Maybe you should have gone to China last year or the year before to enjoy the authentic Chinese experience of living in a cage without food because grocery shopping was verboten. That's the bailey, the wide-ranging generalization about China as dystopian hellhole that you want to make. When you get pushback, you retreat to the defensible motte of: Well, there were some lockdowns for limited time periods in some places in China. The second the coast is clear, you go back to occupying the bailey. Motte-and-bailey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
  - badpun 3y ago
    > US media distorted everything, reduced Chinese people to a monolith, downplayed or simply ignored all of the genuinely good things happening The media I follow generally acknowledge that Chinese adopting capitalism led to the greatest increase of standard of living in entire human history (in terms of how quick it was and how many people were affected). That's not downplaying.
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      That is a fairly simplified view which is very convenient for particular Western political interests but I don’t see it as a reflection of reality. The Chinese have “capitalism” with significant public investment in infrastructure and education. Bullet trains can take you everywhere on the cheap. Few foreign companies have been successful due in some part to protectionism (but also failed business models). Their markets are highly regulated, preventing mergers and IPOs of large companies. Ant Group for example. Jack Ma was severely punished for even suggesting that bank regulators ease up. They also have strict data regulations. On the other hand, workers’ rights are a lot more curtailed. A lot of tech works 996, and unionization is pretty rare. Getting 2 days off per week isn’t the norm like in the US. And forget about OSHA. So in that sense they are almost hyper-capitalist. The point is, I don’t think it fits cleanly into the ideologies that many would like to apply to them.
      - badpun 3y ago
        The question is if the regulation and intervention is for the greater good, or is it because someone in the CCP took a bribe or saw an opportunity to steal the company from the rightful owner.
    - elzbardico 3y ago
      There’s always the kind of article that suggests that Chinese academic achievements are not that impressive because for some reason Chinese graduate students are just some kind of robotized academics incapable of independent thought, creativity and are just ver good order followers, which is something that everyone who has actually worked with Chinese folks know it is a stupid generalization.
zvmaz 3y ago
> Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Russia, China, Turkmenistan, Brunei. You learn a lot about how the western media tends to exaggerate for political ends. I am not a Westerner, and I highly doubt you could get an understanding of what it is like to live in such countries by merely visiting them as a tourist.
- xenospn 3y ago
  When I went to DPRK, the entire visit was completely orchestrated - but I still got to see people go about their daily lives (even tho I had no idea who they were and had no way of interacting with them). I saw peasants carrying bundles of sticks along empty roads and witnessed how impoverished they really are. I got to kick a ball around with some kids and see locals enjoying a sunny Sunday in the park. I also looked out my hotel window at night and saw a city in darkness. When visiting Turkmenistan, I was completely unsupervised - and it was eye-opening and completely bizarre. I actually interacted with the locals and got to hear their stories - same in China and Uzbekistan.
mannerheim 3y ago
Funny, I have been to China many times visiting family and have never felt that western media has been particularly unfair in its portrayal. I would rather not ever go back while Xi is still in power if I can help it (unfortunately I may have to one or two more times for familial obligations) and would recommend against going to anyone on the fence. Don't get Brittney Griner'd.
- ido 3y ago
  Why Xi in particular, and do you have reason to believe his successor would be any better?
  - mannerheim 3y ago
    > Why Xi in particular His rule has corresponded to a more authoritarian turn in China, especially in the last few years with his abolition of term limits. It was hardly a liberal country before, but the fact is it has gotten significantly worse, and I have no confidence of that situation improving as long as Xi is in power. I have no desire to end up like, say, Saad Ibrahim Almadi. > do you have reason to believe his successor would be any better? No. But it is the bare minimum.
robocat 3y ago
Absolutely enlightening, but be prepared to be made very sad by the truth about how many people actually live in illiberal countries. Also unless you make a very concerted effort to get to know what is going on, you often will be blissfully ignorant because tourist areas are abnormally nice, and the workers in the tourist areas can be very motivated to present a happy face, and usually a language barrier. You do get a slight feel, but what you don’t get to see is usually the part that matters e.g. why uncle Bob is dead or in jail; the difficulty in getting healthcare in Cuba; police abuse; the hidden constraints on “normal” freedoms.

catiopatio 3y ago

No, you learn a lot about how illiberal governments treat foreign visitors from wealthy western countries, and how they leverage their power to control what you as a tourist see and hear. The first country you list is the DPRK, who are famed for carefully stage-managing any visit by western tourists. If you want an honest view of those places, you have to speak with people who aren’t risking their lives or livelihoods if they tell you the truth.

janalsncm 3y ago
North Korea is an exception, since it’s pretty hard to talk to actual locals. Having lived in one of those illiberal countries for a while (China) I could clearly see how the US media distorted everything, reduced Chinese people to a monolith, downplayed or simply ignored all of the genuinely good things happening, and took every opportunity to highlight the negatives. It is to the point where every positive, interesting, or beautiful thing is reflexively shot down and dismissed.
- mannerheim 3y ago
  Maybe you should have gone to China last year or the year before to enjoy the authentic Chinese experience of living in a cage without food because grocery shopping was verboten.
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    With sufficient repetition, propaganda embeds itself into a person’s core belief system. This makes it self-replicating in ways that no state alone has the resources to accomplish. Very quickly when people travel (even if within their own country), they realize that their worldview has been shaped by what others want them to see. Maybe it is a benign travel ad that crops out the favela in the background, maybe it is genuinely lovely people colored as backwards or belligerent. There’s a reason someone has chosen to post that video or show you that picture.
    - mannerheim 3y ago
      Oh, I've been to China many times. Enough times to appreciate not having been born there. Western media about China, while somewhat one-sided, isn't particularly unfair in my experience.
      - janalsncm 3y ago
        You and I must have different definitions of “unfair” if being one-sided isn’t at odds with fairness.
        mannerheim 3y ago
        For example, I could say that Mao ordered the killing of all of China's sparrows, leading to a massive famine. Is it one-sided to not mention that this was under the mistaken belief that the sparrows were eating all of the food? Maybe. I don't think it's unfair, though. It was idiotic and it had disastrous consequences. One could also mention that the one-child policy was kept in place for years after China's looming demographic issues became apparent, and the silliness of replacing it first with a two-child, and then a three-child policy before its abolition. Perhaps it would be one-sided to not mention the massive bureaucracy of the family planning commission consisting of millions of workers at both the central and local government levels who would have to find other work without it (of which I even have family who used to coerce women into getting abortions), but I don't think that makes it any better. Or ghost cities, which appear in Western media, but rarely mentioning that most of the apartments in these cities end up getting bought because of a real estate bubble in which Chinese citizens pour their savings into buying empty apartments in empty cities. It is 'one-sided' perhaps to not mention that the apartments have owners, but it is factually true that they are empty and the ghost cities exist. Is Western media sometimes unfair? Sure. The BRI gets painted as a debt trap, but the reality is the projects really are intended to be profitable. Will travelling to China help with that? I don't see why, since the BRI is investment in countries outside of China. The biggest misconception most Westerners have, though, is that they are under the illusion that the Chinese are yearning to be free from their oppressive government. And perhaps that is the 'distortion' you are thinking of. Is this a result of the media? Perhaps. But in my opinion, it is a factor of Westerners implicitly believing that all people are just like them, when in reality tyranny is only possible because the people who live under it accept it. Every nation gets the government it deserves.
  - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
    This is exhibit A of how the media in the US and Europe misrepresent China. The fact that you think this is how things were perfectly illustrates the problem. If zero-CoVID had really meant endless lockdowns, Chinese people wouldn't have put up with the policy for nearly 3 years. There were lockdowns in China, but they were limited in time, and before mid-2022, they were relatively rare (as in, nobody I knew was subject to one after CoVID was eliminated in China in March-April 2020). For most of 2020-21, life in China was more normal than in the US and Europe.
    - mannerheim 3y ago
      > endless lockdowns Didn't say that. It's a fact that some parts of China were locked down for months, and that people were going hungry because they couldn't get food. That was all over Chinese social media.
      - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
        Some tiny border towns were. Long lockdowns of major cities were very rare: Shanghai (2 months), Xi'an (a few weeks), and then the list gets pretty thin. There were sporadic lockdowns, but nothing like what one would imagine if, say, CNN were one's only source of information.
        mannerheim 3y ago
        IOW nothing I said was wrong.
        DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
        > Maybe you should have gone to China last year or the year before to enjoy the authentic Chinese experience of living in a cage without food because grocery shopping was verboten. That's the bailey, the wide-ranging generalization about China as dystopian hellhole that you want to make. When you get pushback, you retreat to the defensible motte of: Well, there were some lockdowns for limited time periods in some places in China. The second the coast is clear, you go back to occupying the bailey. Motte-and-bailey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
- badpun 3y ago
  > US media distorted everything, reduced Chinese people to a monolith, downplayed or simply ignored all of the genuinely good things happening The media I follow generally acknowledge that Chinese adopting capitalism led to the greatest increase of standard of living in entire human history (in terms of how quick it was and how many people were affected). That's not downplaying.
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    That is a fairly simplified view which is very convenient for particular Western political interests but I don’t see it as a reflection of reality. The Chinese have “capitalism” with significant public investment in infrastructure and education. Bullet trains can take you everywhere on the cheap. Few foreign companies have been successful due in some part to protectionism (but also failed business models). Their markets are highly regulated, preventing mergers and IPOs of large companies. Ant Group for example. Jack Ma was severely punished for even suggesting that bank regulators ease up. They also have strict data regulations. On the other hand, workers’ rights are a lot more curtailed. A lot of tech works 996, and unionization is pretty rare. Getting 2 days off per week isn’t the norm like in the US. And forget about OSHA. So in that sense they are almost hyper-capitalist. The point is, I don’t think it fits cleanly into the ideologies that many would like to apply to them.
    - badpun 3y ago
      The question is if the regulation and intervention is for the greater good, or is it because someone in the CCP took a bribe or saw an opportunity to steal the company from the rightful owner.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    There’s always the kind of article that suggests that Chinese academic achievements are not that impressive because for some reason Chinese graduate students are just some kind of robotized academics incapable of independent thought, creativity and are just ver good order followers, which is something that everyone who has actually worked with Chinese folks know it is a stupid generalization.

zvmaz 3y ago

> Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Russia, China, Turkmenistan, Brunei. You learn a lot about how the western media tends to exaggerate for political ends. I am not a Westerner, and I highly doubt you could get an understanding of what it is like to live in such countries by merely visiting them as a tourist.

xenospn 3y ago
When I went to DPRK, the entire visit was completely orchestrated - but I still got to see people go about their daily lives (even tho I had no idea who they were and had no way of interacting with them). I saw peasants carrying bundles of sticks along empty roads and witnessed how impoverished they really are. I got to kick a ball around with some kids and see locals enjoying a sunny Sunday in the park. I also looked out my hotel window at night and saw a city in darkness. When visiting Turkmenistan, I was completely unsupervised - and it was eye-opening and completely bizarre. I actually interacted with the locals and got to hear their stories - same in China and Uzbekistan.

mannerheim 3y ago

Funny, I have been to China many times visiting family and have never felt that western media has been particularly unfair in its portrayal. I would rather not ever go back while Xi is still in power if I can help it (unfortunately I may have to one or two more times for familial obligations) and would recommend against going to anyone on the fence. Don't get Brittney Griner'd.

ido 3y ago
Why Xi in particular, and do you have reason to believe his successor would be any better?
- mannerheim 3y ago
  > Why Xi in particular His rule has corresponded to a more authoritarian turn in China, especially in the last few years with his abolition of term limits. It was hardly a liberal country before, but the fact is it has gotten significantly worse, and I have no confidence of that situation improving as long as Xi is in power. I have no desire to end up like, say, Saad Ibrahim Almadi. > do you have reason to believe his successor would be any better? No. But it is the bare minimum.

robocat 3y ago

Absolutely enlightening, but be prepared to be made very sad by the truth about how many people actually live in illiberal countries. Also unless you make a very concerted effort to get to know what is going on, you often will be blissfully ignorant because tourist areas are abnormally nice, and the workers in the tourist areas can be very motivated to present a happy face, and usually a language barrier. You do get a slight feel, but what you don’t get to see is usually the part that matters e.g. why uncle Bob is dead or in jail; the difficulty in getting healthcare in Cuba; police abuse; the hidden constraints on “normal” freedoms.