4 ms·

Sigh, that's not always easy with many of the people here with "unlimited PTO" without guaranteed minimums. Most of the unlimited clauses are based on manager a

by pierat 4y ago

Sigh, that's not always easy with many of the people here with "unlimited PTO" without guaranteed minimums. Most of the unlimited clauses are based on manager approval. The base HR justification for unlimited PTO is to not have to pay out unused PTO when they leave. Naturally, it sounds good on face, but leads to less PTO taken due to inherent worries of "how much is too much", lack of manager approval, and the like. I reject companies that force 'unlimited' PTO. I demand a minimum hard number in place on the offer letter. I've turned down places for that reason. I work in a place that offers 20 days plus all federal holidays. It's a good compromise, but I'd prefer more.

kfrzcode 4y ago
20 + 10 = one full calendar month (that's 6 business weeks) of work. You're asking for more than six weeks per year where you can just get paid for not working. Sure, there's plenty of holistic value-add to being a well rested, happy employee, but if the difference for your happiness and well-being is somewhere above having six weeks of paid vacation (plus assumed sick days as needed for actual sicknesses) and getting paid for doing nothing. . . what's that quantitative number, and how did you arrive there? If your job is so stressful that the aforementioned six weeks plus sick days is not enough vacation for you to recuperate, you're likely underpaid, in the wrong field, or something else is driving your discontent. I'd suggest using your PTO to do some introspection and accounting for where those capacities may be needing some care.
- The_Colonel 4y ago
  Honestly, your suggestion that the desire for more time off must be caused by some mental problem is pretty rude. I also don't understand why is it such a mystery that people might want to pursue other interests than just work and that requires time off work. Here in Europe, 20+10 is the bare minimum, with most people getting more and still striving for more.
  - kfrzcode 4y ago
    I'll concede rudeness as it's perceptive and not intrinsic in this case; I apologize for the timbre of my approach. My stance is more of one rooted in individualism and self-advocation, i.e. if you're dedicated to a job that's considered a full time commitment, that's the social construct. We're not in a society post-labor, idealistic techtopia yet, and that transition if it occurs will be painful and bloated. The reality is if you want the future of work when, how, where you want, then you have to recognize, admit and accept that your mental model of "employee/employer" relationship has to shift. You must not be the one exchanging what you are claiming to be your most precious asset - unburdened time - to the employer. There is no sense in continuing to enslave yourself to the constructs of yore. It is, ostensibly, within your control and power to become the master of your domain. Of course, this is going to look very catered to your particular requirements and value-adding skillsets.... do you have a set of diverse skills that can be leveraged into one-to-many income streams? Why should the organization, that which agrees to give you quite a generous offer by any standard on a global measure, be responsible for ensuring the rest of your life is as you desire? You are the captain of the ship on this journey, only you are in control of the choices you make. Truth is if your employer wanted to you be happy they would give you a full pension and send you on your way. They want your labor, intelligence, work product, but it's all the same. They want your TIME. Build businesses. Choose lifestyles that reduce dependency on extrinsic systemic operational uptime. Expose your raw value to the world as you decide and don't undermine your only static asset in life - time. It's incredible how variable the dollar-amount people set on their hours. . .
    - OkayPhysicist 4y ago
      The employer/employee relationship is a business transaction: I pay them in labor, they pay me in cash. PTO is just me adjusting the amount of labor provided. Imagine I walk into a spice stall and say: "I'd like to buy a pound of cinnamon, please." The seller might reply "Sure, that'll be $20 dollars". But I don't have $20. I have $10. So maybe I counter "Hmmm, best I can do is $10 dollars". The seller could then counter offer "I'll sell you half a pound for $10", and then we could both shake hands and walk off happy. Replace cinnamon with labor, and that's a job negotiation. An employer, to satisfy me into selling my labor, has basically two levers: They can pay me more, or have me work less for the same pay. "Have me work less" is PTO.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > If your job is so stressful that the aforementioned six weeks plus sick days is not enough vacation for you to recuperate, you're likely underpaid Many people would prefer to be paid less and have more vacation time. Vacation time isn't just for recuperating from work. It's free time for people to live their lives as they wish.
  - kfrzcode 4y ago
    Implying that "free time" is the luxury which should be coveted and is rare, rather than prioritizing "free time" as number one and deciding on a survival pathway that fits into that framework.
- simongray 4y ago
  He's getting the literal minimum paid time off required by the EU (20 days + national holidays). Maybe in the US this is considered too much time off, but this amount would just be a basic right for any worker in Europe. Maybe you are the one who needs introspection? Personally, I get 6 weeks + national holidays + 2 family days here in Denmark.
- chucksmash 4y ago
  Your conclusions are nonsequitors. GP doesn't say they need more time to recuperate, they just said they'd prefer more time off. Desiring more leisure time doesn't mean your work is stressful, you are underpaid, in the wrong field, or discontent.
- olddustytrail 4y ago
  In the UK the legal minimum is 20 + 8. I'm currently on 23 + 9 (10 this year due to the coronation). If your job can't provide you with a decent amount of time off, perhaps you need a better job.
- rft 4y ago
  Just looking at the raw numbers from a German PoV, that is in line with our minimum vacation days (4 weeks * 5 workdays/week + 9 to 12 holidays depending on state, if a public holiday falls on a weekend, it is not not "made up later"). So for me that sounds fair and at the lower end, especially if you have negotiation potential. I am stating this to make my bias clear. I found your reply coming across fairly harsh. I think this is because we might have different interpretations of what PTO is. For me PTO is part of the compensation for doing my work. In essence, I am not getting paid to do nothing. I get paid less raw money for working, in exchange for more flexibility and less time at work. PTO is reducing my average work hours per week, just taken in bigger chunks at once rather than working a little bit less each day. I think you can also express more PTO as an increase in hourly compensation, but of course with additional implications. Whether the mandated minimums or any amount of PTO are fitting or not is a different discussion. I think having time you can plan yourself is important. Overall, I think we should strive to work to live and not live to work. At what amount of PTO, compensation, work hours and working conditions you draw your personal line is, in my opinion, very subjective and not necessarily related to job dissatisfaction. P.S. One extreme example for time/money trade-off I have seen, is someone who works 100%, but gets paid 2/3. In exchange he takes an entire year off every 2 years while maintaining his salary during that time. It works out, roughly, to the same hourly wage, but with more flexibility.
- gpgsource 4y ago
  "You're asking for more than six weeks per year where you can just get paid for not working." No. PTO (and other benefits) is compensation for work. It's not free money.
dang 4y ago
As the article isn't about that, we've changed the title to the subtitle to avoid misunderstanding.
miah_ 4y ago
If you live in California, they still have to give you actual PTO and it _does_ accrue even when they say "unlimited". I had to use this banked PTO (I lived in CA, my company was in OR) during medical leave after a surgery (PTO means I'm fully paid, medical leave means you get less than half of your regular salary). So, if you're in CA, you're protected somewhat, talk to HR and take your PTO. Unlimited PTO is never good for you, its always good for the company, it allows them to not pay you your earned time when you leave. People with "unlimited PTO" tend to take _FEWER_ days off than those with actual PTO. There is a bunch more details here: https://founderslegal.com/how-does-unlimited-pto-work-in-california/ https://founderslegal.com/how-does-unlimited-pto-work-in-cal...
systems_glitch 4y ago
In two previous jobs I've had "unlimited PTO" and almost everyone in the office worked more than if they'd been given bank holidays. Pretty sure it's just a mgmt strategy that sounds awesome on paper to workers and is known to actually reduce time away from office. That said, I personally made good use of it. Had a coworker or two ask about how I thought it was "fair" to the company. I knew the rate at which my (salaried) time was being billed to customers and didn't see it their way at all :P
OkayPhysicist 4y ago
'unlimited' PTO should only ever be offered with a required minimum number of days. If that means my boss has to say "Go home for the last 2/3 weeks of December, you can't work any more this year", that's fine. Personally, I'm in a position where I'm perfectly happy with my current company's offer: I get a relatively small (2 weeks) amount of non-sicktime PTO, but I'm more or less free to take as much unpaid time as I want. Which in a field as well-paying as software development, is absolutely fine with me. Even better would be a formal pool of UPTO, which doesn't need any negotiation at all, but luckily my boss is accommodating.

by pierat 4y ago

kfrzcode 4y ago

20 + 10 = one full calendar month (that's 6 business weeks) of work. You're asking for more than six weeks per year where you can just get paid for not working. Sure, there's plenty of holistic value-add to being a well rested, happy employee, but if the difference for your happiness and well-being is somewhere above having six weeks of paid vacation (plus assumed sick days as needed for actual sicknesses) and getting paid for doing nothing. . . what's that quantitative number, and how did you arrive there? If your job is so stressful that the aforementioned six weeks plus sick days is not enough vacation for you to recuperate, you're likely underpaid, in the wrong field, or something else is driving your discontent. I'd suggest using your PTO to do some introspection and accounting for where those capacities may be needing some care.

The_Colonel 4y ago
Honestly, your suggestion that the desire for more time off must be caused by some mental problem is pretty rude. I also don't understand why is it such a mystery that people might want to pursue other interests than just work and that requires time off work. Here in Europe, 20+10 is the bare minimum, with most people getting more and still striving for more.
- kfrzcode 4y ago
  I'll concede rudeness as it's perceptive and not intrinsic in this case; I apologize for the timbre of my approach. My stance is more of one rooted in individualism and self-advocation, i.e. if you're dedicated to a job that's considered a full time commitment, that's the social construct. We're not in a society post-labor, idealistic techtopia yet, and that transition if it occurs will be painful and bloated. The reality is if you want the future of work when, how, where you want, then you have to recognize, admit and accept that your mental model of "employee/employer" relationship has to shift. You must not be the one exchanging what you are claiming to be your most precious asset - unburdened time - to the employer. There is no sense in continuing to enslave yourself to the constructs of yore. It is, ostensibly, within your control and power to become the master of your domain. Of course, this is going to look very catered to your particular requirements and value-adding skillsets.... do you have a set of diverse skills that can be leveraged into one-to-many income streams? Why should the organization, that which agrees to give you quite a generous offer by any standard on a global measure, be responsible for ensuring the rest of your life is as you desire? You are the captain of the ship on this journey, only you are in control of the choices you make. Truth is if your employer wanted to you be happy they would give you a full pension and send you on your way. They want your labor, intelligence, work product, but it's all the same. They want your TIME. Build businesses. Choose lifestyles that reduce dependency on extrinsic systemic operational uptime. Expose your raw value to the world as you decide and don't undermine your only static asset in life - time. It's incredible how variable the dollar-amount people set on their hours. . .
  - OkayPhysicist 4y ago
    The employer/employee relationship is a business transaction: I pay them in labor, they pay me in cash. PTO is just me adjusting the amount of labor provided. Imagine I walk into a spice stall and say: "I'd like to buy a pound of cinnamon, please." The seller might reply "Sure, that'll be $20 dollars". But I don't have $20. I have $10. So maybe I counter "Hmmm, best I can do is $10 dollars". The seller could then counter offer "I'll sell you half a pound for $10", and then we could both shake hands and walk off happy. Replace cinnamon with labor, and that's a job negotiation. An employer, to satisfy me into selling my labor, has basically two levers: They can pay me more, or have me work less for the same pay. "Have me work less" is PTO.
nicoburns 4y ago
> If your job is so stressful that the aforementioned six weeks plus sick days is not enough vacation for you to recuperate, you're likely underpaid Many people would prefer to be paid less and have more vacation time. Vacation time isn't just for recuperating from work. It's free time for people to live their lives as they wish.
- kfrzcode 4y ago
  Implying that "free time" is the luxury which should be coveted and is rare, rather than prioritizing "free time" as number one and deciding on a survival pathway that fits into that framework.
simongray 4y ago
He's getting the literal minimum paid time off required by the EU (20 days + national holidays). Maybe in the US this is considered too much time off, but this amount would just be a basic right for any worker in Europe. Maybe you are the one who needs introspection? Personally, I get 6 weeks + national holidays + 2 family days here in Denmark.
chucksmash 4y ago
Your conclusions are nonsequitors. GP doesn't say they need more time to recuperate, they just said they'd prefer more time off. Desiring more leisure time doesn't mean your work is stressful, you are underpaid, in the wrong field, or discontent.
olddustytrail 4y ago
In the UK the legal minimum is 20 + 8. I'm currently on 23 + 9 (10 this year due to the coronation). If your job can't provide you with a decent amount of time off, perhaps you need a better job.
rft 4y ago
Just looking at the raw numbers from a German PoV, that is in line with our minimum vacation days (4 weeks * 5 workdays/week + 9 to 12 holidays depending on state, if a public holiday falls on a weekend, it is not not "made up later"). So for me that sounds fair and at the lower end, especially if you have negotiation potential. I am stating this to make my bias clear. I found your reply coming across fairly harsh. I think this is because we might have different interpretations of what PTO is. For me PTO is part of the compensation for doing my work. In essence, I am not getting paid to do nothing. I get paid less raw money for working, in exchange for more flexibility and less time at work. PTO is reducing my average work hours per week, just taken in bigger chunks at once rather than working a little bit less each day. I think you can also express more PTO as an increase in hourly compensation, but of course with additional implications. Whether the mandated minimums or any amount of PTO are fitting or not is a different discussion. I think having time you can plan yourself is important. Overall, I think we should strive to work to live and not live to work. At what amount of PTO, compensation, work hours and working conditions you draw your personal line is, in my opinion, very subjective and not necessarily related to job dissatisfaction. P.S. One extreme example for time/money trade-off I have seen, is someone who works 100%, but gets paid 2/3. In exchange he takes an entire year off every 2 years while maintaining his salary during that time. It works out, roughly, to the same hourly wage, but with more flexibility.
gpgsource 4y ago
"You're asking for more than six weeks per year where you can just get paid for not working." No. PTO (and other benefits) is compensation for work. It's not free money.

dang 4y ago

As the article isn't about that, we've changed the title to the subtitle to avoid misunderstanding.

miah_ 4y ago

If you live in California, they still have to give you actual PTO and it _does_ accrue even when they say "unlimited". I had to use this banked PTO (I lived in CA, my company was in OR) during medical leave after a surgery (PTO means I'm fully paid, medical leave means you get less than half of your regular salary). So, if you're in CA, you're protected somewhat, talk to HR and take your PTO. Unlimited PTO is never good for you, its always good for the company, it allows them to not pay you your earned time when you leave. People with "unlimited PTO" tend to take _FEWER_ days off than those with actual PTO. There is a bunch more details here: https://founderslegal.com/how-does-unlimited-pto-work-in-california/ https://founderslegal.com/how-does-unlimited-pto-work-in-cal...

systems_glitch 4y ago

In two previous jobs I've had "unlimited PTO" and almost everyone in the office worked more than if they'd been given bank holidays. Pretty sure it's just a mgmt strategy that sounds awesome on paper to workers and is known to actually reduce time away from office. That said, I personally made good use of it. Had a coworker or two ask about how I thought it was "fair" to the company. I knew the rate at which my (salaried) time was being billed to customers and didn't see it their way at all :P

OkayPhysicist 4y ago

'unlimited' PTO should only ever be offered with a required minimum number of days. If that means my boss has to say "Go home for the last 2/3 weeks of December, you can't work any more this year", that's fine. Personally, I'm in a position where I'm perfectly happy with my current company's offer: I get a relatively small (2 weeks) amount of non-sicktime PTO, but I'm more or less free to take as much unpaid time as I want. Which in a field as well-paying as software development, is absolutely fine with me. Even better would be a formal pool of UPTO, which doesn't need any negotiation at all, but luckily my boss is accommodating.