3 ms·

I'm a US citizen and surely not of any interest to the government. I'd like to travel abroad, but I have an admittedly irrational fear of being denied re-entry

I'm a US citizen and surely not of any interest to the government. I'd like to travel abroad, but I have an admittedly irrational fear of being denied re-entry (or, at the very least, being subjected to considerable unpleasantness upon re-entry) that gives me great pause. (I keep justifying to my wife that we haven't been to all of the US yet but that argument will only go so far.) I absolutely would not travel with any of my daily-driver devices. I worry having a completely empty phone w/o a SIM or a visible history of use would cause me to be more heavily scrutinized. Same goes for a computer. I've heard there's an expectation for some returning travelers to divulge passwords for online accounts upon re-entry to the US (at the risk of "unpleasantness"). I worry because I don't have accounts on the common major social networks. For the accounts I do have (basically Facebook, LinkedIn, and a moribund Gmail account I have grudgingly) I wouldn't know the passwords (because I use a password manager and random passwords exclusively). I wouldn't have my password manager or 2FA seeds with me either. I know I'm a crazy person when it comes to other aspects of my life. Am I a crazy person when it comes to this? (It definitely doesn't help that I've watched various "reality TV" border/customs TV shows...)

asynchronous 4y ago
Probably, but it is a reality that whatever illusion of protection from search and seizure US citizens benefit from is thrown out the window when you try and renter the country. That’s how federal agencies have caught many criminals without a search warrant.
NickBusey 4y ago
I don't know where you're getting your information, but there is absolutely not an expectation to divulge passwords for online accounts upon re-entry to the US.
mikeweiss 4y ago
As a US citizen you cannot be denied entry into the united states. Your thought process around this does appear to be highly irrational and likely based on movies and television. This fear absolutely should not keep you from enjoying international travel.
- chillycurve 4y ago
  You may not be denied entry BUT: - You can be substantially annoyed. - You can be significantly delayed. - Your possessions can be searched and potentially seized. https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-border-2017#when-at https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-border-2017#when-a...
jason-phillips 4y ago
> Am I a crazy person when it comes to this? We are much less interesting in this regard than you might think. In short, no one cares or has time to care. If you ever start working with sensitive information then you might be forced to deal with rather banal hacking attempts with some regularity, but that's probably the extent of it.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
They can't deny you reentry as a USC. They can only keep your devices if they suspect anything fishy. The vast majority of people will never be asked a question beyond "where did you travel to, why, what is the total if your shopping". I've moved back from living abroad and was barely asked about having 4 trunks of stuff (well, other than "are you a barber? that's a lot of shampoo". I've heard even if they take your device, they aren't supposed to be doing anything with your cloud applications as that's more of a subpoena thing. IANAL but I've seen this around several times. Here's some things you can do to increase confidence crossing borders - this includes the foreign ones, where I'd be more worried about problems than US ones: 1) Remove all the git repos from your computer before travel. And SSH key. Re-install at destination, remove again before departing. 2) 1Password travel mode. You can make a vault with logins you're OK being on your device while transiting. has worked well for me for years! 3) E2EE cloud storage. it's super cool that iCloud Drive now can be E2EE but it's pretty difficult to turn iCloud Drive off on devices. ProtonDrive is a good alternative. Keep any files you'll need abroad on ProtonDrive. Remove app before travel. Reinstall at destination. Remove again before departing 4) Yubikeys - some extra account security. Add to all your important accounts. Keep 2 at home, bring 1 along with you while traveling. Get one of those Matador metal bottles with the rubber lid to keep it in so you don't lose it. I hope this gives you some comfort about borders.
bxparks 4y ago
No you are not being irrational. Customs and Border Protection have been known to detain and force US citizens to reveal their passwords: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happe... The chance of this happening to you is very small, but not zero.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
FWIW, I've traveled internationally a dozen times to Mexico, China, and Germany (mostly for work). I have no accounts on the common major social networks, including Facebook and LinkedIn. My laptop runs Linux on an encrypted drive (and it's off when I go through customs), my phone used to run Lineage (now CalyxOS) and would be pretty novel to a customs officer. I was never hassled even a little on re-entry to the US. On entering foreign customs, I've been forced to give up tools like small screwdrivers and hex keys, but never my daily-drivers. I've been forced to pay customs when I had to carry two separate laptops into a country (30% the cost of the laptop, as if I was carrying this beat-up old workstation to sell it in the country, instead of because it was the only way to connect to that proprietary equipment). I've been quizzed about plans to leave foreign countries when the scope of work and time to implement a project were not well-defined, as if I wanted a flexible fare return trip because I was moving to Mexico, forsaking my family, job, and home. Neither I nor any of my coworkers have been hassled on re-entry. We're just not that interesting, it's an irrational fear, stop watching "reality" TV.
downut 4y ago
I have crossed the MX/US border many times and it's more annoying flying but when driving across I've never even spoken to the MX side either direction and the only thing I've ever been asked on the US side (after passport) do you have any meat or cheese or eggs etc. They seem to get really exercised by a couple of eggs. Come to think of it I've never had much interaction on the EU/GB/RO/Egypt side either. The Israelis made my daughter's life hell on departure when traveling with her academically famous and friend of Israel grandfather, so she's quite ferociously negative about ever returning there. The most annoying so far has been flying back to the US. Kinda faschy a couple of times, mainly concerned with (allowed) food items. 20 yo assholes making you wait for the ok. We got Global Entry a few years ago and it's a little nerve wracking the first time (did I get everything right?) but it really does cut out a lot of the stress after that. Global Entry and driving across the MX border is often a 5 min process, including the line! If I was worried about my devices I would encrypt a hard drive and mail it to someplace near the arrival/destination spot. Then carry a bare bones base install over the border loaded with some innocuous stuff. As it is I haul a USB drive with a fully encrypted zfs pool that has innocuously named datasets over borders these days. I am happily no problem at all sure take it thanks. I can go now? Doesn't solve the steadily cutting digits off the travel mate problem but not much to do in that circumstance anyway. I sure wish you would travel. US cities have really gotten uninteresting compared to a lot of places in the world. I'd rather go to CDMX than NYC, for instance. Listen to your wife, she's right. adding... I don't have any social media accounts at all. I have a gmail address, and a couple of migadu domains and that's it. Nobody has ever cared about anything IT ever. Whoops I forgot! I comment occasionally on HN hahaha.
cafard 4y ago
In the 1970s, when I cut my hair about every five months, I was one of two US or Canadian citizens asked to step out of the bus on the way into Canada from New York state. The other guy had even longer hair. The Canadian border police asked me to open my suitcase, asked me about a bag of tea (Earl Gray) and didn't blink at the IRA newspaper I had picked up for laughs at Port Authority in NYC. On the way back into the US at Detroit, a bored agent gave me about five minutes of grief about whether I was in fact a US citizen. He pointed out that neither drivers license nor draft card proved my citizenship. I shrugged, and he waved me through. Since then, I haven't been hassled, though to be sure I've looked a good deal less scruffy.

asynchronous 4y ago

Probably, but it is a reality that whatever illusion of protection from search and seizure US citizens benefit from is thrown out the window when you try and renter the country. That’s how federal agencies have caught many criminals without a search warrant.

NickBusey 4y ago

I don't know where you're getting your information, but there is absolutely not an expectation to divulge passwords for online accounts upon re-entry to the US.

mikeweiss 4y ago

As a US citizen you cannot be denied entry into the united states. Your thought process around this does appear to be highly irrational and likely based on movies and television. This fear absolutely should not keep you from enjoying international travel.

chillycurve 4y ago
You may not be denied entry BUT: - You can be substantially annoyed. - You can be significantly delayed. - Your possessions can be searched and potentially seized. https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-border-2017#when-at https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-border-2017#when-a...

jason-phillips 4y ago

> Am I a crazy person when it comes to this? We are much less interesting in this regard than you might think. In short, no one cares or has time to care. If you ever start working with sensitive information then you might be forced to deal with rather banal hacking attempts with some regularity, but that's probably the extent of it.

kylehotchkiss 4y ago

They can't deny you reentry as a USC. They can only keep your devices if they suspect anything fishy. The vast majority of people will never be asked a question beyond "where did you travel to, why, what is the total if your shopping". I've moved back from living abroad and was barely asked about having 4 trunks of stuff (well, other than "are you a barber? that's a lot of shampoo". I've heard even if they take your device, they aren't supposed to be doing anything with your cloud applications as that's more of a subpoena thing. IANAL but I've seen this around several times. Here's some things you can do to increase confidence crossing borders - this includes the foreign ones, where I'd be more worried about problems than US ones: 1) Remove all the git repos from your computer before travel. And SSH key. Re-install at destination, remove again before departing. 2) 1Password travel mode. You can make a vault with logins you're OK being on your device while transiting. has worked well for me for years! 3) E2EE cloud storage. it's super cool that iCloud Drive now can be E2EE but it's pretty difficult to turn iCloud Drive off on devices. ProtonDrive is a good alternative. Keep any files you'll need abroad on ProtonDrive. Remove app before travel. Reinstall at destination. Remove again before departing 4) Yubikeys - some extra account security. Add to all your important accounts. Keep 2 at home, bring 1 along with you while traveling. Get one of those Matador metal bottles with the rubber lid to keep it in so you don't lose it. I hope this gives you some comfort about borders.

bxparks 4y ago

No you are not being irrational. Customs and Border Protection have been known to detain and force US citizens to reveal their passwords: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happe... The chance of this happening to you is very small, but not zero.

LeifCarrotson 4y ago

FWIW, I've traveled internationally a dozen times to Mexico, China, and Germany (mostly for work). I have no accounts on the common major social networks, including Facebook and LinkedIn. My laptop runs Linux on an encrypted drive (and it's off when I go through customs), my phone used to run Lineage (now CalyxOS) and would be pretty novel to a customs officer. I was never hassled even a little on re-entry to the US. On entering foreign customs, I've been forced to give up tools like small screwdrivers and hex keys, but never my daily-drivers. I've been forced to pay customs when I had to carry two separate laptops into a country (30% the cost of the laptop, as if I was carrying this beat-up old workstation to sell it in the country, instead of because it was the only way to connect to that proprietary equipment). I've been quizzed about plans to leave foreign countries when the scope of work and time to implement a project were not well-defined, as if I wanted a flexible fare return trip because I was moving to Mexico, forsaking my family, job, and home. Neither I nor any of my coworkers have been hassled on re-entry. We're just not that interesting, it's an irrational fear, stop watching "reality" TV.

downut 4y ago

I have crossed the MX/US border many times and it's more annoying flying but when driving across I've never even spoken to the MX side either direction and the only thing I've ever been asked on the US side (after passport) do you have any meat or cheese or eggs etc. They seem to get really exercised by a couple of eggs. Come to think of it I've never had much interaction on the EU/GB/RO/Egypt side either. The Israelis made my daughter's life hell on departure when traveling with her academically famous and friend of Israel grandfather, so she's quite ferociously negative about ever returning there. The most annoying so far has been flying back to the US. Kinda faschy a couple of times, mainly concerned with (allowed) food items. 20 yo assholes making you wait for the ok. We got Global Entry a few years ago and it's a little nerve wracking the first time (did I get everything right?) but it really does cut out a lot of the stress after that. Global Entry and driving across the MX border is often a 5 min process, including the line! If I was worried about my devices I would encrypt a hard drive and mail it to someplace near the arrival/destination spot. Then carry a bare bones base install over the border loaded with some innocuous stuff. As it is I haul a USB drive with a fully encrypted zfs pool that has innocuously named datasets over borders these days. I am happily no problem at all sure take it thanks. I can go now? Doesn't solve the steadily cutting digits off the travel mate problem but not much to do in that circumstance anyway. I sure wish you would travel. US cities have really gotten uninteresting compared to a lot of places in the world. I'd rather go to CDMX than NYC, for instance. Listen to your wife, she's right. adding... I don't have any social media accounts at all. I have a gmail address, and a couple of migadu domains and that's it. Nobody has ever cared about anything IT ever. Whoops I forgot! I comment occasionally on HN hahaha.

cafard 4y ago

In the 1970s, when I cut my hair about every five months, I was one of two US or Canadian citizens asked to step out of the bus on the way into Canada from New York state. The other guy had even longer hair. The Canadian border police asked me to open my suitcase, asked me about a bag of tea (Earl Gray) and didn't blink at the IRA newspaper I had picked up for laughs at Port Authority in NYC. On the way back into the US at Detroit, a bored agent gave me about five minutes of grief about whether I was in fact a US citizen. He pointed out that neither drivers license nor draft card proved my citizenship. I shrugged, and he waved me through. Since then, I haven't been hassled, though to be sure I've looked a good deal less scruffy.