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In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free, and whilst that's no consolation to my American peers, it's furthering the point that America's healthcare sy

In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free, and whilst that's no consolation to my American peers, it's furthering the point that America's healthcare system is fundamentally flawed. Technological problems are ideally solved by technology. Social problems aren't always best solved with technology, they're a band-aid. Well, something being fit-for-purpose is an important consideration. If it tells people that the world would probably be a better place without their broke, uneducated, unwell self and that their life statistically is unlikely to get any better because they're talking to an AI and not a real human being, that's a huge ethical problem, and the LLM is not an appropriate solution. I can get LLMs to tell me all kinds of dangerous things. The more text you give it, the higher the chance of those safety measures going out the window, especially if that conversation has a lot of back-and-forth over time. When people explain their problems, they use a lot of words and a lot of negative sentiment. Not talked about this before with anyone, but as a case-in-point, I managed to make an LLM's safety features go completely out the window over me recalling a low-point in my life. I would not recommend that shit in good faith to anybody.

pjc50 4y ago
> In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free The waiting list for that is considerable. You can (usually) get a GP for free, and they can chuck antidepressants at you, but that's not quite the same thing.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  The missus got a call-back the very next day. My mother got a call-back the very next day. I got a call-back the very next day. We didn't get any anti-depressants. More info: https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-treatments/talking-therapies-and-counselling/nhs-talking-therapies/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-...
  - pjc50 4y ago
    I'm glad you got such a rapid response, but I've also heard anecdotes of much longer time periods. Probably depends on your NHS trust area.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  It looks like the waiting list is about 12 weeks [1] though I saw references to 18 weeks as well. For a non-acute mental health issue that doesn't seem unreasonable. But do you know how it works after that waiting period? Are you limited to a certain number of sessions after which you have to reapply & wait again, or can you continue on? Having to wait in the US is also not uncommon, thought it's easier if you live in more populated areas. Psychiatrists are always much harder though, even in populated areas, and many GP's are reluctant to prescribe anything more than an SSRI. If a mood stabilizer or anything else is necessary then you could be waiting 6 months for a first visit with a psychiatrist. Unless you have the money: There is high enough demand and low enough supply that many (and often the better ones) don't accept insurance at all, an intake visit runs up to $1000, a full visit $500, and a 20-minute "medication maintenance" visit is still $250. Also if someone is suicidal they can jump the 6-month line by going to the nearest ER. Are psychiatrists difficult to get in the UK as well? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/10/nhs-mental-health-patients-wait-times https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/10/nhs-mental-h...
  - YourDadVPN 4y ago
    I believe you get 6 sessions on the NHS, but the therapist can recommend you for more if they think it's warranted.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
spacebanana7 4y ago
> In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free The cost still exists. It’s just that the NHS budget pays for it - at the margin drawing resources away from nursing salaries and cancer treatments.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  Are you saying that someone with mental health problems not killing themselves is any less worthy a cause than treating someone with cancer? My step-father has paranoid schizophrenia. He didn't ask to be born with it, but if it weren't for the NHS, he would be dead. That's a fact. Equally, he couldn't afford nor access appropriate services in his home country of Canada, and ended up homeless on the street for years on end, and ended up with a criminal record because of his untreated paranoid schizophrenia, which meant he negatively impacted others. I've been suicidal myself at times. I have a friend being treated for cancer currently, I've had family members treated for cancer in old age. A life is a life. The problem is inadequate funding, not anybody other than cancer patients trying to not kill themselves. The problem is the elected party spaffing countless hundreds of billions on failed projects that are completely irrelevant to cancer treatment or the NHS. The problem is not increasing salaries relative to inflation or paying them what they're worth. The problem is not people seeking therapy.
  - spacebanana7 4y ago
    > Are you saying that someone with mental health problems not killing themselves is any less worthy a cause than treating someone with cancer? Not at all. I merely stated that there’s a competition in resources between the two. Innovations that improve the quality/cost of mental health treatment are therefore still valuable in an NHS system where treatment is free to the patient because they allow more resources to be directed towards the rest of the healthcare system. Or alternatively, expand the coverage of mental health treatment for the same budget.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      > I merely stated that there’s a competition in resources between the two. But why compare/contrast those two? They're both health care, after all. There's competition in resources between all specialties. Why is contrasting those two particular ones worthwhile as opposed to say, stating there's a competition between oncologists and gastroenterologists?
meowtastic 4y ago
> In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free I've used one of the free NHS therapists and frankly it was worse than talking to a chatbot. They clearly follow a script and don't exhibit empathy. They hurry you through the stages in their scripts so that they can say they're done with you as quickly as possible. I've spoken to a few close friends and they had similar experiences. I can't even get angry at them, because I know how under-resourced the NHS is. The reality is that mental health services are just too expensive in their current form.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  Quality likely varies with area. That wasn't my experience whatsoever.
SanderNL 4y ago
Good for you I guess. NL is different. Long queues, bad psychologists, expensive.

pjc50 4y ago

> In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free The waiting list for that is considerable. You can (usually) get a GP for free, and they can chuck antidepressants at you, but that's not quite the same thing.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
The missus got a call-back the very next day. My mother got a call-back the very next day. I got a call-back the very next day. We didn't get any anti-depressants. More info: https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-treatments/talking-therapies-and-counselling/nhs-talking-therapies/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-...
- pjc50 4y ago
  I'm glad you got such a rapid response, but I've also heard anecdotes of much longer time periods. Probably depends on your NHS trust area.
ineedasername 4y ago
It looks like the waiting list is about 12 weeks [1] though I saw references to 18 weeks as well. For a non-acute mental health issue that doesn't seem unreasonable. But do you know how it works after that waiting period? Are you limited to a certain number of sessions after which you have to reapply & wait again, or can you continue on? Having to wait in the US is also not uncommon, thought it's easier if you live in more populated areas. Psychiatrists are always much harder though, even in populated areas, and many GP's are reluctant to prescribe anything more than an SSRI. If a mood stabilizer or anything else is necessary then you could be waiting 6 months for a first visit with a psychiatrist. Unless you have the money: There is high enough demand and low enough supply that many (and often the better ones) don't accept insurance at all, an intake visit runs up to $1000, a full visit $500, and a 20-minute "medication maintenance" visit is still $250. Also if someone is suicidal they can jump the 6-month line by going to the nearest ER. Are psychiatrists difficult to get in the UK as well? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/10/nhs-mental-health-patients-wait-times https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/10/nhs-mental-h...
- YourDadVPN 4y ago
  I believe you get 6 sessions on the NHS, but the therapist can recommend you for more if they think it's warranted.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

spacebanana7 4y ago

> In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free The cost still exists. It’s just that the NHS budget pays for it - at the margin drawing resources away from nursing salaries and cancer treatments.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
Are you saying that someone with mental health problems not killing themselves is any less worthy a cause than treating someone with cancer? My step-father has paranoid schizophrenia. He didn't ask to be born with it, but if it weren't for the NHS, he would be dead. That's a fact. Equally, he couldn't afford nor access appropriate services in his home country of Canada, and ended up homeless on the street for years on end, and ended up with a criminal record because of his untreated paranoid schizophrenia, which meant he negatively impacted others. I've been suicidal myself at times. I have a friend being treated for cancer currently, I've had family members treated for cancer in old age. A life is a life. The problem is inadequate funding, not anybody other than cancer patients trying to not kill themselves. The problem is the elected party spaffing countless hundreds of billions on failed projects that are completely irrelevant to cancer treatment or the NHS. The problem is not increasing salaries relative to inflation or paying them what they're worth. The problem is not people seeking therapy.
- spacebanana7 4y ago
  > Are you saying that someone with mental health problems not killing themselves is any less worthy a cause than treating someone with cancer? Not at all. I merely stated that there’s a competition in resources between the two. Innovations that improve the quality/cost of mental health treatment are therefore still valuable in an NHS system where treatment is free to the patient because they allow more resources to be directed towards the rest of the healthcare system. Or alternatively, expand the coverage of mental health treatment for the same budget.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > I merely stated that there’s a competition in resources between the two. But why compare/contrast those two? They're both health care, after all. There's competition in resources between all specialties. Why is contrasting those two particular ones worthwhile as opposed to say, stating there's a competition between oncologists and gastroenterologists?

meowtastic 4y ago

> In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free I've used one of the free NHS therapists and frankly it was worse than talking to a chatbot. They clearly follow a script and don't exhibit empathy. They hurry you through the stages in their scripts so that they can say they're done with you as quickly as possible. I've spoken to a few close friends and they had similar experiences. I can't even get angry at them, because I know how under-resourced the NHS is. The reality is that mental health services are just too expensive in their current form.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
Quality likely varies with area. That wasn't my experience whatsoever.

SanderNL 4y ago

Good for you I guess. NL is different. Long queues, bad psychologists, expensive.