6 ms·

Is it legal to have private conversations discussing actual plans for acts of terrorism? I assume you have to pierce some veil of reality, make a purchase, buy

Is it legal to have private conversations discussing actual plans for acts of terrorism? I assume you have to pierce some veil of reality, make a purchase, buy a ticket, etc. before it becomes a crime. My point is if we can make surveillance costly by filling the airwaves with false positives that are just a group of bots plotting a terrorist act? I assume that is legal to do. Edit - ok, so it definitely seems like this is not clever at all and almost certainly a crime. Don't do this!

citizenkeen 3y ago
> Is it legal to have private conversations discussing actual plans for acts of terrorism? Not in most countries, no.
bragr 3y ago
No, that would likely constitute criminal conspiracy, even if you have no intent to commit it. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=182&lawCode=PEN https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
- nashashmi 3y ago
  > (2) Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime. So this means police informants in connection to the police are also committing a crime? Far too often people with recorded criminal activities are baited into getting another person caught for a more severe crime like terrorism, in exchange of being let go.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >So this means police informants in connection to the police are also committing a crime? It says "falsely and maliciously". So, if what say is true, it's not a crime. If what they say is false but they believe it to be true, it's not done "maliciously", so it's not a crime. If what they say is false and they know it, yeah, it is a crime. But if the police and court believes them, or if it's the police itself that pressured them to point their fingers to some person they wanted to get, then it doesn't matter whether it's a crime or not, as it wont be prosecuted, and the police not only doesn't care, but explicitly wants the false testimony.
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      Ok. So it is regards to a false prosecution or to frame someone else for a crime. That is not the same as baiting someone to commit a crime.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Only if you don't get caught; plenty of schools have been evacuated because people mentioned comitting a crime without actually intending to execute it. That said, flooding the systems with false positives is definitely possible, but it would be used as a cover for actual terrorist attacks.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >Only if you don't get caught; Well, that's true for any crime tho, so doesn't answer the parent's question.
- rolph 3y ago
  you seem to be describing "swatting"
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    Sometimes it’s “bomb threat”. I got a free day my last year of high school because someone claimed to have set them up the bomb.
vvilliamperez 3y ago
Not legal. The problem with conspiratory talk is that while one person may fully not intend on action, it could inspire and/or manipulate others into committing acts. The blame is shared on all for conspiring and creating that environment where acts can emerge.
- drdaeman 3y ago
  What if an unhinged language model generates all this noise talking to other language models, with no humans involved at all? The only human involvement would be an instruction to start spouting some believable bullshit on controversial topics, plus granting access to some private messaging tools and providing a contact list of other language models to talk to.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    If the human did this for "plausible deniability" to avoid being persecuted, they shouldn't bet on it. If they can get them, they will. The law is more of a technicallity for such cases.
  - rolph 3y ago
    we have a dearth of FPS games [aka combat sims], it would be easy to include terroristic operations in this type of product.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    > spouting some believable bullshit on controversial topics So 80% of reddit and twitter is illegal conspiracy plotting/planning?
mkoubaa 3y ago
I'm pretty sure it's illegal unless you're an intelligence operator trying to entrap people, in which case it's your job
coldtea 3y ago
I've read news stories of people caught, charged and everything, just for discussing those things. So, no actual act is necessary.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
slavik81 3y ago
There's great sketch by the Whitest Kids U'Know on the legality of such statements. https://youtu.be/gmiKenqLVAU https://youtu.be/gmiKenqLVAU
- kristopolous 3y ago
  Bachs brandenberg concerto #3 is always a nice choice. One of my faves
prmoustache 3y ago
it gets quickly less fun when all your family is woken up in the middle of the night by a SWAT team, your kids are yelled at, your equipment is seized and your partner ask for divorce.
Thrymr 3y ago
M-x spook https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/lisp/play/spook.el https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/lisp/play/...
anigbrowl 3y ago
In general, you can discuss such ideas but agreeing to perform them brings you up against the line of committing crime. In the US, you have to commit some material act in furtherance of the conspiracy, but that can be almost anything. For example, if you and your friends agree to rob a bank and decide you'll need gloves, ski masks, and some kind of weapon, buying 6 pairs of rubber gloves at the store the next day would qualify as a material act. You don't need to acquire all the expected tools or go anywhere near the bank you discussed robbing.

citizenkeen 3y ago

> Is it legal to have private conversations discussing actual plans for acts of terrorism? Not in most countries, no.

bragr 3y ago

No, that would likely constitute criminal conspiracy, even if you have no intent to commit it. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=182&lawCode=PEN https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

nashashmi 3y ago
> (2) Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime. So this means police informants in connection to the police are also committing a crime? Far too often people with recorded criminal activities are baited into getting another person caught for a more severe crime like terrorism, in exchange of being let go.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >So this means police informants in connection to the police are also committing a crime? It says "falsely and maliciously". So, if what say is true, it's not a crime. If what they say is false but they believe it to be true, it's not done "maliciously", so it's not a crime. If what they say is false and they know it, yeah, it is a crime. But if the police and court believes them, or if it's the police itself that pressured them to point their fingers to some person they wanted to get, then it doesn't matter whether it's a crime or not, as it wont be prosecuted, and the police not only doesn't care, but explicitly wants the false testimony.
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    Ok. So it is regards to a false prosecution or to frame someone else for a crime. That is not the same as baiting someone to commit a crime.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

Only if you don't get caught; plenty of schools have been evacuated because people mentioned comitting a crime without actually intending to execute it. That said, flooding the systems with false positives is definitely possible, but it would be used as a cover for actual terrorist attacks.

coldtea 3y ago
>Only if you don't get caught; Well, that's true for any crime tho, so doesn't answer the parent's question.
rolph 3y ago
you seem to be describing "swatting"
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Sometimes it’s “bomb threat”. I got a free day my last year of high school because someone claimed to have set them up the bomb.

vvilliamperez 3y ago

Not legal. The problem with conspiratory talk is that while one person may fully not intend on action, it could inspire and/or manipulate others into committing acts. The blame is shared on all for conspiring and creating that environment where acts can emerge.

drdaeman 3y ago
What if an unhinged language model generates all this noise talking to other language models, with no humans involved at all? The only human involvement would be an instruction to start spouting some believable bullshit on controversial topics, plus granting access to some private messaging tools and providing a contact list of other language models to talk to.
- coldtea 3y ago
  If the human did this for "plausible deniability" to avoid being persecuted, they shouldn't bet on it. If they can get them, they will. The law is more of a technicallity for such cases.
- rolph 3y ago
  we have a dearth of FPS games [aka combat sims], it would be easy to include terroristic operations in this type of product.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  > spouting some believable bullshit on controversial topics So 80% of reddit and twitter is illegal conspiracy plotting/planning?

mkoubaa 3y ago

I'm pretty sure it's illegal unless you're an intelligence operator trying to entrap people, in which case it's your job

coldtea 3y ago

I've read news stories of people caught, charged and everything, just for discussing those things. So, no actual act is necessary.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

slavik81 3y ago

There's great sketch by the Whitest Kids U'Know on the legality of such statements. https://youtu.be/gmiKenqLVAU https://youtu.be/gmiKenqLVAU

kristopolous 3y ago
Bachs brandenberg concerto #3 is always a nice choice. One of my faves

prmoustache 3y ago

it gets quickly less fun when all your family is woken up in the middle of the night by a SWAT team, your kids are yelled at, your equipment is seized and your partner ask for divorce.

Thrymr 3y ago

M-x spook https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/lisp/play/spook.el https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/lisp/play/...

anigbrowl 3y ago

In general, you can discuss such ideas but agreeing to perform them brings you up against the line of committing crime. In the US, you have to commit some material act in furtherance of the conspiracy, but that can be almost anything. For example, if you and your friends agree to rob a bank and decide you'll need gloves, ski masks, and some kind of weapon, buying 6 pairs of rubber gloves at the store the next day would qualify as a material act. You don't need to acquire all the expected tools or go anywhere near the bank you discussed robbing.